Probably going to be DFed for "apostasy" soon

by WontLeave 26 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • DJPoetech
    DJPoetech

    I thought your points on this were spot on.

    I figured when Jesus died that the true religion died with him. What was left behind was mankind's best guess at what was "appropriate". The result being religious practices that were reworkings of older religions of times past with popular Jewish figures interwoven in. This is the wolf in sheeps clothing guys.

    In other words, why start another inferior religion to replace a group that was selected by blood. If a group that had blood lines, prophets, Moses, King Solomon, David the King, the land of Israel, and etc was rejected, why the heck entrust it to a group of amateurs that clumsily claims authority.

    When Jesus died, he eliminated all earthly authority. If we believe in him, there is no earthly religious authority or anyone claiming such authority that can truly have power over you. This is the major advantage of Jesus being in the heavens.

    Remember, all authority in the heavens and on earth was placed into his hands. God and Jesus knew and know what they are doing. its humans that are playing catchup right now.

    the funny thing is, that every new thing you learn, God has already known it.

    Apostacy is a loaded word for a controlling group that knows no true love. they, like the pharasees, know that recognition of Jesus authority in an individual's life puts them out of a job. Thats why groups will attempt to reduce Jesus importance, eliminate his importance, obscure, or shift his importance. He is either, second to Jehovah, just a prophet, God Himself, or whatever. He is rarely spoke of as a mediator due to the control issues experienced by many religious leadership. Witnesses included. 1 Timothy 2:5 is one of the least used scriptures used by Jdubs.

    His power is in freeing us now from the oppressive yoke of stupid doctrine and the leaders who perpetuate it. The worst they can call us is fools! Great! Scripture says that God will do great things through the foolish things of the earth.

    WontLeave, your post just kinda got me thinking... Thanks!

  • MrMonroe
    MrMonroe

    You are so right WontLeave: Among Witnesses there is a dread of displeasing The Organization, which:

    • Goes beyond the things written with its endless rules, requirements and assumptions;
    • Judges others;
    • Places human burdens on followers with the claim that carrying those burdens pleases God;
    • Overrides Christian conscience with its own dictates;
    • Confuses programmed, regimented, time-calculated conscripted "service" with Christian good works;
    • Tickles the ears of its followers;
    • Forces followers to die out of a dogmatic, ignorant and twisted interpretation of God's laws on eating blood; and
    • Dishonors God with its concoction of scarey Arnageddon scenarios and petty, exclusivist viewpoints on who God is willing to "save".

    The shame of it is that so many of the decent people sickened by the pettiness, control, hypocrisy and lies not only quit the Organization, but abandon God along with it.

    Matthew 23:23, 28: "Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You who pay your tithe of mint and dill and cummon and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law -- justice, mercy, good faith! You appear to people from the outside like good honest men, but inside you are full of hyporcisy and lawlessness."

  • reslight2
    reslight2

    WontLeave:

    While it is good to see that you are awakening to the fact that the JW leadership is not "chosen" by God's holy spirit,

    Regarding Charles Taze Russell:

    Russell did not start the Jehovah's Witnesses. Russell did not believe in such an authoritarian organization, nor did he believe in the message that is preached by the organization. Indeed, the message preached by the Jehovah's Witnesses is almost the opposite of the "good news of great joy that will be for all the people" that Russell taught and in which he believed as central to the glorification of God. Rutherford rejected the "ransom for all" and replaced it with his "organization" doctrine and the threat of the "second death" for practically anyone who disagreed with Rutherford.

    See:
    Russell and the Founder of the JWs
    Russell and Church Organization

    I do not believe that there is anything wrong with Biblical pyramidology.

    See:
    Russell and Pyramidology

    Russell had nothing to do with Spiritistic Numerology

    See:
    Russell and Numerology


    There was nothing wrong with Stoner's Miracle Wheat, nor did Russell do anything wrong related to those who were selling the Miracle Wheat.

    See:
    Russell and Miracle Wheat

    While Russell did not consider his studies on chronology and dates to be on the same par as his studies on the ransom for all and related doctrine, I do not know that the dates are "failed dates." They are failed dates only if God himself never meant those dates to be used. From the JWs' perspective, they would be "failed dates", since Rutherford rejected almost all of Russell's studies on those dates; however, if Barbour was correct on the dates, they are not failed dates. I believe the dates are not "failed dates", although many things expected on those dates may have been "failed expectations." Nevertheless, God is determiner on this, and he will make all known to all in due time. Russell's conclusion was the the prophecies will be fulfilled, whether he had it right or not as in his expectations. Regarding the "time of trouble" that he was expecting to begin 1914, Russell stated: "We believe the Bible teaches October, 1914, as the time. If that is incorrect for a year, or five, or one hundred years, no matter, it is coming some time, whether we have it right or not." (1912 Convention Report) Russell, however, died in 1916 with the belief that the time of trouble had begun in 1914; I also believe that it did begin in 1914 and we are still living in the time of trouble which is disciplining the nations in preparation for the kingdom rule of peace.

    See
    Russell and 1874
    Russell and 1914

    As far as "erroneous doctrines," I can see how this could be said from the standpoint of those who accepted Rutherford's new organization and its doctrines, which doctrines are in contradiction to the central teachings of Russell. By 1930, the Bible Students movement (as whole -- represented by the majority) had rejected Rutherford's new organization, as well as his new alleged "gospel" that millions of people of the world would be eternally destroyed without any benefit from the ransom for all. It is any wonder that the majority of the Bible Students refused to preach this new alleged gospel of the kingdom, which is almost the opposite of what they had been preaching for decades? The JWs statement that the former "Bible Students" simply took the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" is misleading, since the Bible Students as as whole (as represented by the majority) did not accept Rutherford's new organization, did not accept Rutherford's new gospel, and did not accept the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" for themselves in the sense that Rutherford applied it to his his new organization.

    At any rate, I do not know of any "Christian" author's writings since the apostles time that is fully free from error. Russell made some errors, but I believe he certainly had a lot more correct than that in which he made errors. I do not accept all that Russell taught simply because he taught it, and I do believe he was in error on many relatively minor points. Russell never presented his teachings, however, as though they were representing an organization such the "Jehovah's Witnesses". He allowed any to accept or not accept all his conclusions without seeking reprisal against any who did not accept all he taught. He certainly had no thought of sending representatives around to disfellowship all who disagreed with him, as did Rutherford. He sought no control over the local congregations as did Rutherford. Thus, what he wrote and the emphasis to be placed on what he wrote fall into a different category than that of the JW organization's writings and claims, and his writings should not be judged by the later claims of the JW leadership, as so many often do.

    See:
    Russell and salvation
    Russell and the Good News

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Not to derail the topic but Russell, like most people, tried to have too many things both ways.

    You can find quotes from him trying to be humble and no one special and you can find quotes from him claiming to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

    You can find quotes from him saying the Bible is the most important book and you can find quotes from him saying that Studies in the Scriptures could put someone "in the light" even if that one never saw a Bible.

    You can find quotes from him trying not to be dogmatic about his date scheme and you can find quotes from him saying that the dates he prophesied are God's dates, not man's.

    Charles Taze Russell may have meant well; certainly he meant better than that opportunist, Rutherford. But what it comes down to is that they were both pretty much wrong about everything they preached. Nothing Biblically significant happened in 1799, 1874, 1879, 1914, 1925, or any other time in the past several centuries. It's all hokum.

  • Nobleheart
    Nobleheart

    Mad Sweeney I appreciate your comment. For some time I was of the opinion that Russell was a decent man, in spite of the wrong prophecies. But after doing my research I came to realize that apart from being misguided, his character is quite inconsistent. These inconsistencies are reflected as you clearly pointed out, in his view of himself and the Bible.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Mad Sweeney I appreciate your comment. For some time I was of the opinion that Russell was a decent man, in spite of the wrong prophecies. But after doing my research I came to realize that apart from being misguided, his character is quite inconsistent. These inconsistencies are reflected as you clearly pointed out, in his view of himself and the Bible.

    This is a very astute statement. It has pained me in the past to see many (or at least some) who leave the present-day WTBTS to nostalgically wish to return to the Russellite philosophy. It is pointless to worry about whether Rutherford was "worse" than Russell, isn't it? - when, after all Russell and his little band actually started all the false prophecy associated with 1874 and 1914. And, who claimed himself to be the "faithful slave" while making that false prophecy.

  • reslight2
    reslight2

    Not to derail the topic but Russell, like most people, tried to have too many things both ways.

    You can find quotes from him trying to be humble and no one special and you can find quotes from him claiming to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

    I do not defend Brother Russell in everything he said; however, I do not know of anytime that Russell ever made a claim of being the faithful and wise servant. He did repeat the claims of others, but he seemed reluctant to state anything definite in application of the "faithful and wise servant."

    See my own studies:

    Parable of the Four Servants
    The Faithful and Wise Servant and Other Servants

    You can find quotes from him saying the Bible is the most important book and you can find quotes from him saying that Studies in the Scriptures could put someone "in the light" even if that one never saw a Bible.

    Brother Russell stated many times the former and only once the latter. From the perspective under which he stated the latter, both statements were true. Nevertheless, Russell's latter statement should not be taken out of context and placed in the context of JWs' later claims, or even under the manner of speaking that is often presented by most denominational leaders.

    However, if anyone depends only on Russell's Studies for light due to be understood, he will be in relative darkness regarding things that can be understood better today; this does not mean that they do not belong to Christ, as all who belong to Christ are in varying degrees of understanding. I believe that most -- if not all -- Christians living today will not understand the full truth until they have been exalted in heaven as joint-heirs with Jesus or until after Satan has been abyssed when Jesus will lead them to the waters of life. -- Revelation 7:15-17.

    See:

    Is Reading of "Scripture Studies" Bible Study?
    Russell's Quotes Concerning the Bible

    Russell on "Only Authority"

    You can find quotes from him trying not to be dogmatic about his date scheme and you can find quotes from him saying that the dates he prophesied are God's dates, not man's.

    What Russell actually stated: "They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours." Russell, using an editoral "we" -- stated his "belief" -- his "opinion" -- that they are God's dates, and he was firm in stating his belief; he was not being dogmatic. He was not saying that everyone had to accept what he believed, nor was he claiming that he knew for a fact that what he believed was beyond error. Indeed, in the context of those words, he stated, "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the View presented in the WATCH TOWER of Jan. 15, '92." (Watch Tower, July 15, 1894) Note that he used the words "opinion" and "view".

    His statement here regarding 1914 being the date for the end of the time of trouble is stated because there were some of the Bible Students who were saying that they believed that the time of trouble was to begin -- not end -- in 1914. Russell had accepted Barbour's view that the time of trouble was to end in 1914, and for many years he did not seem to understand why some of the Bible Students were thinking otherwise. However, evidently after much discussion, in 1904 (ten years before 1914) Russell changed his "view" from that he had held to earlier, and which he expressed in 1894 in the article referenced, and came to accept that 1914 was to see the beginning -- not the end -- of the time of trouble. Thus, from 1904 up to 1914, Russell held to the view that the time of trouble was to begin in 1914, and he believed until he died in 1916 that the time of trouble did begin in 1914. However, to get the proper perspective of all of this, one has to take Russell out of the context of the organization concept of the JWs, or out of the context that many present him as being a prophet, and realize that he was did not regarding himself as the dictator of any such organization, and certainly not as a prophet.

    There were several different viewpoints amongst the Bible Students when Russell was living, and Russell never considered himself as one to demand his view on all the Bible Students. Indeed, he many times presented differing viewpoints in the pages of the Watch Tower.

    Nevertheless, I can also firmly say that I believe that they are God's dates; I do not mean that to be dogmatic. I admit that what I believe in this regard may be wrong, even though I firmly believe it to be correct; I can only say that God will reveal to all whatever is in error in His own due time.

    Charles Taze Russell may have meant well; certainly he meant better than that opportunist, Rutherford. But what it comes down to is that they were both pretty much wrong about everything they preached.

    I can definitely say that Russell certainly had much, much, much, more correct than he had wrong. I certainly believe that he had the basis of atonment correct, which he considered to be the central Biblical doctrine that glorifies God. I have proven this doctrine to be true to myself from the Bible. As related to this central doctrine to the glorification of the heavenly Father, the claims of man's self-proclaimed orthodoxy are wrong, such as the trinity, immortality of the human soul/spirit, eternal conscious suffering of the wicked, etc., all which end up in contradiction to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, and which, in effect, end up making God appear to be unjust. For instance, if the trinity is true, then rather than condemning sin the flesh, Jesus actually justified sin in the flesh, proving that for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High.

    See what I have written on the Atonement, Life Now and Hereafter, and Jesus and His God

    Nothing Biblically significant happened in 1799, 1874, 1879, 1914, 1925, or any other time in the past several centuries.

    I suppose this would depend on what one considers significant. Many claim that the birth of Jesus was not significant; many claim that Jesus' baptism was not significant; many claim that the Jesus' death was not significant; and so on. Indeed, even from the standpoint of most of Israel in the first century, those events held no significance. To this day, many claim that the resurrection and ascension of Jesus is not significant since they do not believe that those events actually happened.

    For a few major points regarding the dates:

    1799 - The 1260 years of Papal supremacy, which began 539 and prophetically came to an end in 1799. The "saints were delivered out of his hand" as Papacy's power to put them to death waned.

    The temporal sovereignty of the Pope ended during the French Revolution when the French army captured Rome in 1798. The French had demanded that the pope relinquish his temporal sovereignty and withdraw all of his edicts against the revolution since 1791, but he refused. Because of this, the French had dethroned, exiled, and imprisoned him.

    On the night of February 20, 1798, under constant guard of French dragoons Pius VI was first transferred to Sienna. Since he was still in the heart of Italy, the French decided to move him elsewhere. They transferred the pope to Florence, then on to Parma and Turin. The French finally moved the pope to the French fortress of Valence, in Dauphiny, on July 17, 1799. He died on July 25, 1799.
    http://www.history1700s.com/articles/article1076.shtml

    1874 - End of Daniel's prophecy of 1335 days; great jubilee began; Christ's parousia begins while the people are not aware, as foretold in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26. Benjamin Disraeli, a non-practicing Jew, also known as Lord Beaconsfield, became prime minister of England in 1874, and was able to influence matters favorably for the Jewish people.

    1878 - I assume 1879 is meant to be 1878, or assuming that 1879 started around October of 1878? Many, including myself, believe the time for the beginning of the raising of the sleeping saints had come in that year; Israel's "double" time of disfavor came to an end; the Berlin Congress of Nations met in 1878 and passed the "Berlin Treaty of 1878" which removed some of the barriers on the Israelites’ return to and stay in Palestine.

    1914 - I believe that the lease to Gentile rulership came to end; the time of trouble began with the outbreak of World War, which parallels Israel's destruction from 69 to 73 (1914-1918); after the war ended in 1918, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 allowed Jews to return to Israel. I believe that in 1914, Jesus officially assumed his authority as King of the Jews and of all nations of the earth, which has led to trouble amongst all nations, and that trouble still exists. The nations are still blinded by Satan, and once Satan (as depicted in Revelation 20) has been abyssed, then the nations -- all the heathen -- of the earth will be enabled to gradually come into the light of Christ without the deceptions that are now prevalent upon the earth. -- Isaiah 2:2-4.

    1925 - Irrelevant, as far as Russell and the Bible Students (including myself) are concerned.

    I do not, however, say that one has to believe what I have accepted regarding any of the dates in order to belong to Christ, nor did Brother Russell ever make such a claim.

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    I may be a little slow on the uptake, but frankly, the wording in defense of Russell sounds eerily like "Reasoning From the Scriptures". I think that's all I need to know as far as that's concerned.

    I still like many of the concepts of Christianity, but I think if God would sit back and let people be fooled by smoke-and-mirror groups like the Society, well, I'm going to assume he's got nothing to offer. The universe is silent, and nobody can escape that.

    Let the WTS and their soldiers have it with both theological and logical barrels. Then, step over 'em and get on with your life. It's much easier.

    -sd-7

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    As far as Russell's Bible Students v. modern Jehovah's Witnesses goes - in my opinion - that's akin to Jesus' Christianity v. Catholicism. In each case, one became the other. The current "Bible Students" are a ragtag disorganized version claiming to be from the original group, kind of like the current KKK (while their similarities may end there). I mean, come on, I looked at their website and the misspellings and grammatical errors are off-putting, to say the least. In one case, what was supposed to be a capital S was actually an 8! As far as I am concerned, there is no "Bible Student" group, anymore. Rutherford performed a hostile takeover and it eventually turned into what it is today, just like the introduction of a clergy class did to Jesus' religion.

    Even if a solid case could be made that they are the same group, they have not moved beyond Russell. That was 100 years ago and pretty much all they have are his writings. How is that not like any other cult that revolves around a "prophet" or "leader"? Russell had a LOT of nutty ideas and plenty of his writings were rife with commentary and opinion. He might have been more benevolent than modern JW leadership, but he still adopted the "faithful and discrete slave" name for himself. That's Jesus' decision to make and according to his words in Matthew and Luke, that won't be decided until right before the Great Tribulation.

  • Perry
    Perry
    I'm not really worried about facing being thrown out, because I've gotten to where I can't stand being around these blasphemous idolaters anymore. The worship of the Society in the latest WTs is sickening and the glazed-eyed hypnosis of the brain-dead followers regurgitating the same vomit is disturbing.

    That is the result of idolatry. It make zombies out of the worshipers. There is only freedom in Jesus. Just go to another church ... one that doesn't care much about their own little group. It's what we did.

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