Keeping House to House Records??? Joe Public

by Celtic 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Neon:

    That the keeping of records such as this is a subject of concern to the general public is demonstrated by the fact in Britain, the WTS no longer uses the pre-printed not-at-home slips, since this was addressed by the new Data Protection Act. Records are indeed now kept individually on hand written scraps of paper.

    For me, the kicker to this area is that, because of the policies of the WTS on child-abuse, such information, even if only temporarily kept, may well fall into the hands of a paedophile. In fact, many publishers do keep their own territory cards for extended periods of time, and the more zealous of these build up considerable knowledge of the territory and those who live in it. This information is often recorded and kept with the territory, and is not destroyed when the card is handed back.

    Nic:

    I'll take a look at the flyer and email you as soon as I get the chance. I too think flyers might be effective.

    Celtic:

    I'll be interested to see your suggestions for alternatives. And keep that damned Celtic temper under control will ya? LOLOL!

    Expatbrit

  • Celtic
    Celtic

    It was yam balmpot.

    Nicolau knows I respect him greatly.

    Til later orrn.

    Ruddy nora!!

    Mark

  • lydia
    lydia

    Mark,
    You have a very good point - think of it this way..
    If someone knows that there is no one home at a certain house at a certain time.. and this info falls into a persons hands who is a thief ( now we know there are NONE of these in the Borg )
    that person could, in the worst case scenario - rob the place

    -OR as was pointed out - a Pedofile could return - and after striking up a conversation with the child residing there - begin to abuse that child....

    I believe thatthey sometimes use the fact that a person keeps records here of someone's coming and going to warrenta stalking charge here in the US...

    Many of the public are unaware of this practice....

    While the Borg is no longer a big part of my life - I think the public has a right to know if notes are kept about their property.

    Lyd

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    I appreciate the point you make, but whatever the motive and intention of taking house to house records I think is completely besides the point. That such practice is undertaken by ordinary people, especially the times that a householder is absent, I find particularly quite worrying, and believe that the British public too would share this grave concern, regardless.

    First, let me say that anything that helps to bring down the Borg is OK with me. But my concern here is that you could spend a lot of time publicizing an issue that really wouldn't grab too much public interest, versus putting your efforts into something that might get a real reaction, like the pedophile issue, or blood, or even the UN thing.

    Second, I know most of the posts here seem to be written from a British perspective, and I'm not especially familiar with laws and procedures in the UK, so what I say might have a particularly American slant to it.

    But I think that any court, whether a literal one or the court of public opinion, would tend to weigh the JW's practice of recording "not-homes" against the fact that we all breach our own security in many ways on a daily basis. For example, my wife and I just bought a TV and DVD player at Circuit City. Not being very technically-oriented, I jumped at the sales dude's offer to come over and hook it up for us after work one night. It was a fairly expensive HDTV unit, and I assumed that the commission he earned on it would compensate for his time. (We also offered to pay him for his trouble, but he wouldn't take anything) It occurred to us, however, that he could do this just to get into people's homes to case them for future burglaries, if he were that sort of person. So we knowingly breached our security in that sense by letting a stranger into our home. Again today, we did the same thing; the broiler in our gas range went, and we allowed a repairman to come into our home to fix it. We buy things constantly over the internet using credit cards. We use credit cards at stores and restaurants, too - leaving copies of our credit card information in the hands of poorly paid clerks.

    Any one of these things that I mention above could come back to bite us on the butt, if the information fell into the wrong hands. But that's a big "if". All of us assume in our daily lives that information will be handled properly and used for the purpose for which it's gathered. If we are paranoid to the point of guarding against every possible abuse, we start to look like the Mel Gibson character in the movie, Conspiracy Theory. Most of us take reasonable precautions beforehand, and take action only after the fact, if some abuse does occur. And in the USA, at least, there are laws as to how much money a credit card holder is liable for under such circumstances.

    Now, you could argue that in all of the above cases, I am initiating the transaction, where in the case of the JW's, they are approaching homes unbidden, then keeping "records" as to who is not home. But the question is, how do you prevent this, assuming it is the big problem you think it is? Would you make laws preventing strangers from calling at the homes of others without an invitation? If someone does call at the house of a stranger, would you prohibit them from writing a "note to self" reminding them of what happened when they got there? Or are you saying that all such private notes ought to be matters of public record? I think those things would be an unreasonable restriction of freedom, and would cause more problems than they solve. And, bear in mind what I have pointed out before, the "records" are not being accumulated; the sole purpose of noting who is not home is to be able to find the person home at a later time. Once that is accomplished, the note is discarded.

    the kicker to this area is that, because of the policies of the WTS on child-abuse, such information, even if only temporarily kept, may well fall into the hands of a paedophile.
    As might any other record kept in any other situation. The vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses are not pedophiles. The fact that a small minority might be is not a reason to abridge the freedom of the majority. Again, I'm not defending the Borg or its policies here, and I am as opposed as anyone to the policies it has adopted with regard to pedophiles in the congregations. But if you're going to spend your time trying to arouse a public outcry, I think you'd get much more mileage attacking the pedophile issue directly, rather than this business about the house-to-house records.

    In fact, many publishers do keep their own territory cards for extended periods of time, and the more zealous of these build up considerable knowledge of the territory and those who live in it. This information is often recorded and kept with the territory, and is not destroyed when the card is handed back.
    Well, sure. The pioneers, for example, get to know every house in the territory after a while, but the only way to prevent that from happening would be to prohibit the door-to-door work entirely, and I don't think that's a good idea, because too many other freedoms would be affected. Even salesmen for worldly businesses get to know their territories thoroughly. If a few have criminal intent, then through the law, we need to deal with their criminal acts, not take away the freedoms of all those who may be in similar circumstances to prevent a small minority from abusing the situation.

    In my years as a JW, records were never kept more than one cycle of the territory. Usually, territories were not returned until all householders had been contacted, or sometimes, a small number who had been missed might be noted on the House-to-House record for the next person to concentrate upon. But it never went beyond that. If those householders were still not contacted, the slip was discarded before the territory went out again. Even the carrying of the slip to the next assigned person as I have described was rare.

    Anyway, do what you think is best, but I think there are bigger fish you could be frying than this one.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Neon:

    You make good points and reasonings. It's always good to get other viewpoints.

    I still think we are approaching this from slightly different angles. I agree that involving the courts, getting them to try and ban the door-to-door work, is a non-starter, and in fact wrong. People should be free to practise their religion.

    However, people should also be free to not have religion forced upon them. They also should have the right to determine what records are kept on them (imo). They also should have the right to know what records are being kept, and why, and the risks involved.

    Consequently, my view is not to involve the courts, but simply to inform the general public of what records the WT keeps on them. Tying in the paedophile issue informs them of one reason they should be concerned.

    The advantages to this?

    1) Attention is brought to the paedophile issue (the bigger fish).
    2) People get to make an informed decision about whether they want these records kept on them.
    3) If, as I obviously think will happen, people get pissed off about it and tell the witnesses not to call, the WT cult will suck in a few less victims.

    That's why I think this is a good idea.

    Expatbrit

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Right on Expat'!

    This is the official DNC policy taken straight from http://www.do-not-call.org/policy.htm

    Do-not-call.org (dnc), are not aiming to bring about the downfall of the Watchtower Society or even in ending it's door to door preaching work.

    All members of a free society have the right to worship as well as the freedom of expression to propound that belief to others.

    This is not to say however that all forms of worship are either desirable, healthy or advantageous and the freedom Jehovah's Witnesses enjoy to propagate their beliefs needs to be balanced by those with countering views.

    Especially in respect of Jehovah's Witnesses doorstep preaching activities, the rights of the preacher need to be weighed against the rights of the householder.

    A religious organization granted its freedom to preach in a democracy must respect the wishes of individual members of that democracy should they request not to be called upon.

    dnc exist solely to provide the public with an easy means of distancing and protecting themselves and their families from the activities of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Nic'

    http://www.do-not-call.org

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    What?

    No more S 8's?

    Tarnation! Before you know it they will have forgotten all about the remnant.

    And probation. +, you could enjoy a blow-job without being DF'd. I know I did.

    Englishman.

    Hey! Now you are an outie, you can dance too!

  • Scully
    Scully

    Neonmadman writes:

    If we are paranoid to the point of guarding against every possible abuse, we start to look like the Mel Gibson character in the movie, Conspiracy Theory.

    Paranoia is not necessarily a bad thing. Remember, in that particular movie, the conspiracy theory of Gibson's character ended up being RIGHT.

    Quite frankly, I'd much prefer having the JWs make note of me telling them to sod off and never come back, than to be bothered with them over and over and over.

    While JWs have the 'legal right' to perform their manner of 'worship' by going door-to-door to preach, individuals also have the right to not have their privacy intruded if they so wish. If a community wants to take that kind of action and collectively tell JWs that they do not want them calling, then people have to be willing to press charges against them for trespassing if and when it occurs.

    Perhaps a neighbourhood petition would be useful. Of course, the JWs will protest and call it persecution, but when you think about it, this type of action should free up their time a lot more to concentrate on those homes where their visits are welcome. A copy of the document would have to be kept on file at both the Kingdom Hall with the appropriate territory card, and with city officials so that any infraction would have some kind of legal support. It's just an idea. I'll let you do with it as you wish.

    Love, Scully

    It is not persecution for an informed person
    to expose a certain religion as being false.
    - WT 11/15/63

    A religion that teaches lies cannot be true. - WT 12/1/91

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