Taking legal action against the JWs for DFing??? Need serious advice

by 2pink 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    Please think long and hard before you actually commit money to a lawsuit. It really has to be worth it, unless spending money on lawyer fees is no problem for you. The WTS will separate itself from the elders doing the DF'ing, so most likely the lawsuit would be against the elders involved. What would the actually monetary damages be and would a jury really consider a defamation of character monetary award? The elders may not have any money to pay damages, so it could be like trying to get blood from a turnip. Spending a little money to have a lawyer sending a threat letter if they DF you may or may not scare them. Sending the letter is probably as far as I personally would go. If they proceeded, then I wouldn't even bother responding to them, but then again I have no JW contacts I care about keeping.

    Think About It

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask

    You should get some legal advice before you make any moves, even simply implying or threatening your intention to sue. Any elder worth his salt will know that the WTS has taken the right to disfellowship to the Supreme Court (I am assuming you are in the US) and has won. Following is from the official Watchtower website:

    http://www.watchtower.org/e/19880415/article_01.htm

    Since you threw this out into a public forum I expect you're seeking feedback. If I was to be just a little cynical I might observe that you may want just a little too much. Putting up Christmas decorations outside your house is a strong statement your congregation could not ignore. You seem to be saying you want to disassociate but you really don't. You have started the fire burning and are now considering feeding the flames but if you escalate the situation it may just consume you. If you want to maintain relationships with some people in the Kingdom Hall you will need to convince them to fade with you (or disassociate, since the fading option may now be lost to you) or you will need to put the fire out by taking down your decorations and eating a little crow. From what I understand you can't have it both ways.

    My real advice, now that you have made your very public statement, is to say goodbye to the WTS and make a fresh start. You may have no other choice anyway.

  • undercover
    undercover

    This comes up from time to time...

    As much as we may want to take legal action against the WTS or its local reps for their DFing/shunning rules, there's not much point in it. The courts (US) have consistently ruled in favor of religions and their rights to excommunicate as they see fit.

    And technically they do have the right. When you join the club you agree to abide by the rules. If you break the rules, then the club can expell you.

    The WTS has adjusted their DFing procedures and announcements over time to ensure that they are legally protected. You're not going to win a lawsuit for their DFing and shunning practices.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I'm a lawyer and cannot give legal advice in this setting. Specific facts change the way courts rule. Only a lawyer, admitted in your state, knowing all the facts can give advice. My specialty is constitutional rights. The flag salute controversy ended with my mom being expelled from high school at fourteen. My brother, who received the highest academic score in the state of New Jersey, was expelled with less than one week to graduation. The Sup. Ct. finally ruled that such laws, applied to parents, were unconstitutional. My father was a drinking buddy of Covington at Bethel.

    The First Amendment guarantees only apply to the government, state and federal. Private action is not covered. The Society have a right to enforce their religion. Recently, the Salvation Army purged all non-believers from its employee rolls. The fired employees sued the Salvation Army under discrimination laws and lost big time at the Supreme Court. There is also the problem that you might be viewed as waiving any rights when you became a Witness.

    Defamation and libel are possibilties. My hunch from afar is that constitutional rights outstrip statutory or common-law (evolved through judge made law before the advent of active legislatures. Our basic body of law is common-law, except where supplanted by the Constitution or legislation. Actions within the congregation are likely to be lawful. Perhaps billboards or newspaper ads might be a different reason.

    Freedom of religion is almost absolute. The only thing that can affect it are neutral laws of general applicability, such as drug laws, not screaming fire in a crowded theatre when no fire is present, bigamy. The law cannot affect religion and must apply to nonreligious people, too.

    I don't know how the congregations handle legal matters. Perhaps a letter might chill them. My hunch is that the Society would not kow-tow at all. If anything, the Society seems to disavow its imprint from the actions of local congregations. Most lawyers do free consultations. A single letter should not cost much. The lawyer would hear your dealings with the congregations and obtain a "feel" for how they act.

    We faded away. My mother refused to let us be dedicated at the age she was, fourteen. I remember my fervor at that age which soon faded. Outsiders can't truly imagine what disfellowship is like. Witnesses are a very closed society so members typically have few social outlets. My extended family remained active witnesses. I lived in terror of their discovering my activities, Christmas trees, elections, parties, dancing, college, etc. It was so hard to say "God Bless You." Thankfully, they spoke with us. I recommend reading a Bible in complete books and asking what I believed it said. The transition may be hard but the other side is blessed.

  • dissed
    dissed

    We also recently had two examples here in Phoenix where individuals sent pre-warning letters to the Elders. One from an attorney and the other, a copy of a legal letter. The copy was rejected and the Elders DF'd the individual. The other one from an attorney was accepted by the Elders and they did nothing. The person is still able to talk with family.

    Its your decision, but for us, time has mellowed our feelings. Ignoring the Elders, feels about right for us now. We are sooo past them...lol In the mean time, we have purchased a very nice bottle of Champagne we are saving for such an occassion of a certain announcement.

    Wish you only the best in whatever you decide to do.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    If your goal is to be treated as though nothing happened, a legal letter will probably inflame the situation seriously. It takes a lot of litigation to make someone a sophisticated users of legal services. A threat of legal action is waving a red flag/banner at a bull. They have the right to disfellowship. No American court is going to step in and regulate or monitor an internal religious matter. In fact, when the Establishment Clause is discussed, excessive entanglement in a religion is one of three criteria courts use to evaluate these claims. To put a judge as a fact-finder of religious doctrine is clearly forbidden.

    I have no doubt that lawyers write such lawyers to generate a fee. Such a letter would never dissuade me if I were in their place. Law is not the ultimate path to justice. You know the personalities involved in your case. Is there some way to pressure from within the congregation? What about key rank and file members? Again, there is probably a way to limit their announcement of wrongdoing to only what is necessary to protect the congregation.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    If the grounds are DFing, you will lose, guaranteed, if you're in the USA. Track down the Barbara Anderson decision, a link has been posted here a few years back. Nail in the coffin.

    http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/TCA/PDF/071/WatchtowerOpn.pdf

    http://silentlambs.org/andersonlosesappeal.htm

    Look for other grounds. There are many.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    undercover wrote: This comes up from time to time...

    As much as we may want to take legal action against the WTS or its local reps for their DFing/shunning rules, there's not much point in it. The courts (US) have consistently ruled in favor of religions and their rights to excommunicate as they see fit.

    And technically they do have the right. When you join the club you agree to abide by the rules. If you break the rules, then the club can expell you.

    The WTS has adjusted their DFing procedures and announcements over time to ensure that they are legally protected. You're not going to win a lawsuit for their DFing and shunning practices.

    I have studied common law (not in the US), I work with a barrister here in australia, and there are certains ways around this, this can cost a lot of money, governing body should be sued, as evidence Shephearding the flock book on the basis of misleading and deceptive conduct. From then on uncovering all the lies, bloodshed etc. This can realy turn into something BIG, unabling JW's the right to dis-communicate, but it costs $$$$$$$$.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    our first amendment rights of freedom of religion.

    And that is the biggest hurdle to cross when trying to take a religion to court in the United States, its a very strongly held to amendment.

    Just because some individual announces in front of a religious congregation that one previous member is no longer a JWS does not

    insinuate openly in public an act of defamation of character. The WTS lawyers have been through these kinds of threats before many times

    so they have laid down the ground rules to the GB, which they in turn have presented over to the congregation elders.

    On the other hand the WTS self imposed rule that if member leaves their religion that this person should be openly shunned and hated

    publicly by associated friends and family, this contravenes the freedom of religious self expression held to in the Constitution.

    It is a wrongful act to create hated and prejudice upon an individual based upon their religious choice or beliefs.

    This is where the WTS's disfellowshipping policies breaks the law to suit their contrived means.

    One of these days someone is going to take this situation to court and the WTS will lose on this account.

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask

    It is important to recognise that there is no real justice. You can't count on God or on the group to which you subscribe or on Government to be just, to do the right thing for you. It hasn't happened yet and history is a pretty good proxy for what is a reasonable expectation of the present and future. If you have lots and lots of money you can push the system to its extreme and if your case is just or you convince the right people then you might prevail. If your objective in life is to live for yourselves free of the WTS then take the hit and follow the path you've chosen. Just go. If you're still trying to get the most $ out of the situation before you go, then keep playing the game. But don't play a losing hand.

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