SD-7, bail is refunded when the person shows up in court. It is simply insurance the person will showup.
Jesus' Physical Resurrection = Take the Ransom Back?
by InterestedOne 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Ding
InterestedOne wrote, "In addition to the "take back the ransom" argument, they said there is no way he could be raised physically because he ascended to heaven."
I've never understood this argument. The Bible says that both Jesus and Peter walked on water even before the resurrection, which indicates that God can override normal physical laws. If Jesus could walk on water before the resurrection, why can't he ascend to heaven in a physical body after the resurrection.
The assumption that a physical body cannot exist in heaven is just that -- an assumption. Heaven is not outer space. In today's lingo, we would probably describe heaven as another dimension. Jesus said he was not a spirit, that he had a body of flesh and bone. He had them touch him to prove it. The Bible says he later ascended to heaven. The Watchtower's statement that this is impossible flatly contradicts what the scripture says.
The Watchtower gratuitously equates "made alive in the spirit" with "being made an incorporeal spirit creature" which contradicts Jesus' own words to his disciples that he was NOT a spirit but rather that he had flesh and bones that could be touched.
As Chalam (Stephen) has noted, 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of "a spiritual body," not "an invisible spirit creature."
In order to understand any Bible teaching we have to consider ALL the passages on a subject rather than latching onto a phrase, giving it our own definition, and ignoring all passages that contradict our definition. The Watchtower makes this exegetical error time and time again with regard to many scriptures. They find a proof-text, put their own spin on what it says, and then twist every contrary scripture to fit the construct they have created.
The "take the ransom" back argument is another example of this. Jesus said he would lay down his life and take it up again. John 10:17. Does this mean Jesus was reneging on his sacrifice or that the Father wasn't accepting the gift? Not at all. Conclusions like "Jesus' rising in a physical body would be taking back the ransom" are nothing more than a Watchtower straw man argument. They draw a conclusion that isn't found in the Bible at all and then mock it. It's a complete red herring which comes from speculation, not from the Bible itself.
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THE GLADIATOR
"The assumption that a physical body cannot exist in heaven is just that -- an assumption."
Equally
The assumption that a physical body can exist in heaven is just that -- an assumption.
This is why these debates never lead anywhere. They are simply ideas - and ideas can only exist in the mind until manifest.
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ProdigalSon
We're reading an incomplete story in the Bible because of the Catholic Church and their editing. Jesus was resurrected with a "light body", which we all have and are connected to right now. Eastern medicine has been working with the light body for millennia. The Russians have cameras that can photograph this energy. It's not carbon based, but crystalline based. This is why Jesus could walk through walls but still show the holes in his hands to Doubting Thomas and eat food like a regular person.
What's been hidden from us by mainly the Roman Church is that we all have this ability to be what Jesus was and to do what he did. We simply need to raise our vibration level with more love and less fear, and with a little help from the universe.
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Chalam
Equally
The assumption that a physical body can exist in heaven is just that -- an assumption.
Genesis 5:24 (English Standard Version)
24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
2 Kings 2:11 (English Standard Version)
11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Hebrews 11:5 (English Standard Version)
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
This is why these debates never lead anywhere. They are simply ideas - and ideas can only exist in the mind until manifest.
Hebrews 11:1 (New International Version, ©2010)
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
John 20:25-28 (New International Version, ©2010)
25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Just because some do not believe does what which already exists cease to be.
Blessings in Christ,
Stephen
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InterestedOne
All of your comments are helping me to get some perspective on this, not just the JW slant, but I am wondering about something Ding said which was:
. . . Jesus' own words to his disciples that he was NOT a spirit . . .
How do you reconcile this with 1 Cor 15:45:
"The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
It's refering to Jesus as -a- spirit.
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Chalam
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, the "life-giving spirit".
John 14:16-18 (New International Version, ©2010)
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Galatians 4:6 (New International Version, ©2010)
6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:10 (New International Version, ©2010)
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life [a] because of righteousness.
Footnotes:
- Romans 8:10 Or you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive
John 6:63 (New International Version, ©2010)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit [a] and life.
Footnotes:
- John 6:63 Or are Spirit; or are spirit
Colossians 1:15-17 (New International Version, ©2010)
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Blessings in Christ,
Stephen
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sinis
Interested:
Let me sum this up for you after having been in the org for years... it is all BULLSHIT, including the Bible. Make your life your own, and don't follow any book, man, religion, etal. Do you burn a childs hand to prove the point to them that the stove is hot and dangerous? No. Likewise, anything to do with the witnesses is dangerous. Why study with them, when so many of us have lived the horror?
Your looking for answers in an antiquated book, written by men, propagated by the church, and used by the few to enslave the masses. Free your mind, and then you free yourself.
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Ding
InterestedOne,
In answer to your question, I believe that the Bible teaches that a natural body is one empowered by natural processes of earth. It is subject to weakness and death.
By contrast, a spiritual body is a physical BODY (it's NOT the same as being "a spirit" because in Luke 24:36 Jesus specifically says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he had after the resurrection). The difference is that a spiritual body is empowered by God's spirit, not by natural processes of earth. As such, it is not subject to weakness and death.
With that understanding from what Jesus said in Luke 24, let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:45ff.
45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
<< This particular verse is not talking about the resurrection body of Adam (it couldn't be; Adam hasn't been resurrected); so also, it is not talking about the resurrection body of Christ.Rather, it is talking about the contrasting ORIGINS of the first Adam and the last Adam (Christ) and of the NATURE OF THE LIFE we get from each of them. The first Adam started out on earth. From him, we get our physical life. The last Adam started out in heaven. From him, a Christian gets his spiritual life by being reborn spiritually (John 3:3). This is not something for only 144,000. John 1:12-13: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." >>
46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.<< As ordinary human beings descended from Adam, we did not originate with spiritual natures and then get physical bodies. Rather, we start with physical bodies and then need to get spiritual life imparted to us by Christ. >>
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
<< Again, Paul is not in this verse talking about the resurrection of Adam or of Christ. He is talking about where they came from -- Adam from the dust of the earth, Christ from heaven. Why? Because it relates to the different type of life we get from each of them. >>
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
<< We get our physical nature from Adam; Christians get their spiritual natures from Christ when we are reborn spiritually. 1 Peter 1:3-5: "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.>>
49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
<< The body we inherited from Adam is empowered by earthly processes. The resurrection bodies we will have one day will be empowered by God's spirit. This doesn't mean that we will be incorporeal spirits because Jesus wasn't an incorporeal spirit. He had a glorified physical body of flesh and bone and so will resurrected Christians. >>
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. >>
<< The purely natural man will not inherit God's kingdom. We must have a spiritual rebirth and, eventually, imperishable physical bodies empowered, not by earthly processes, but by God's spirit. >>
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.<< Both Christians who are resurrected from the dead and Christians who survive the end times without dying will have their physical bodies changed so that they are no longer empowered by natural processes but by God's spirit. As such, they will not be perishable but imperishable. Christians' spiritual bodies will be like Jesus' resurrection body which was a physical form, not an incorporeal spirit. >>
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Mad Sweeney
I feel like something is wrong with their arguments, but I can't put my finger on it.
One can make the Bible support any conclusion one wants it to support. Want the Bible to support going house to house? You can do that. Want the Bible to support NOT going house to house? You can do that, too. There are scriptures in the Bible on both sides of a LOT of topics and if one claims to use the Bible as an authority, he can really make it say whatever he wants it to.
So what is wrong with their arguments is that they are based on cherry-picking of Bible verses and then jigsawing them together into a puzzle that nobody else would ever dream of putting together.
And I have to comment here on Prodigal Son. You rock, dude. Don't EVER stop posting here, please.