If I recall correctly, back in the 70's when new Gilead students came to Bethel they would get a tour of NYC and one of the stops they would visit was St. Patricks Cathedral.
what is the wt's stance on dubs visiting historic churches?
by moomanchu 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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clearpoison
I was never thinking there would be something wrong about visiting churches. I just didn't bought the candles as usual tourists. On the other hand I could very well buy cards or guidebooks about those places, without thinking where the money was going, me and my hardened heart.
Regarding the concept of paying to Great Babylon, it's little mixed feelings. I live in a country where majority of hospitals are state or community owned, but how would a concious JW act in US where many hospitals are owned by different churches. On the other hand in some places here graveyards are church property, they need to allow non-members being buried there, but you pay for the grave space to the church anyway. So in one way or another you are sending your money to Great Babylon.
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Band on the Run
When I was a child, we were absolutely forbidden. Then, my grandmother took us by the hands to escort us in. She would thwart any demons. I was certain it was my last minute on earth. We frequently visited Rockefeller Center, particularly to gaze at the Christmas tree. My gm let us tour Macy's toy department at Christmas and bought us one toy as long as we knew it wasn't a Christmas gift.
I was about sixteen and not believing very much when I walked up the stairs to see St. Patricks Cathedral in NY. Despite my new stance, I was petrified but determined to join the rest of human society. I tiptoed inside. Out of the periphery, I saw a pope in a glass cubicle, the WWII Pope Pius, I think, or maybe Pope Paul. I screeched so hard people came running. It was a demon spook to me. In reality it was a wax figure, wearing the liturgical robes he wore when visited St, Patricks or that he donated to St. Patricks.
I felt very uncool. St. Patricks' is glorious. It is so NY. Much later, I developed severe facial neuralgia. Since I was Anglican, I had this ecumenical spirit. The New York Times reported that AIDS victims were denied healing services. Someone had the foresight to tape record the nasty, unloving conversation with a monsignor and walked it directly to the Times. The man was gay and Latino. I thought I was different with my education and blonde hair and corporate attire. I was refused a healing service and not in a kindly way. The priest quoted rules, I quoted the example of Jesus. The Chinatown community helped me. I started the Anglican healing circuit. The best healing services were at St. Paul's Chapel, next to the WTC. Homeless people were sleeping in the pews and alcoholic and smelly. St. Paul's must have been chock full of healing power because I knew Jesus wanted that type of service.
I visited the Vatican and hope to return. Raphael, DaVinci and Michelangelo brought me to tears. Berninin's canopy. Michelangelo's Last Judgment Day in the Sistine with his self-portrait in flailed flesh opened the water works. His depression was so profound but God's glory can be spyed in his works. They trascend human work. Many Jewish people tour the Vatican b/c of the tradition and the art. I am quite an art buff. Once I saw the Harlem/Delft school of painters at the Met. The work was mighty impressive. I turned a corner and came to face a Vermeer. I saw God in action through humans. It is hunch, an immediate reaction. Masterpieces are like that. Humans soaring and I believe not under their own power.
What works has the Watchtower inspired? Brooklyn Heights residents despise them for their plastic flowers. Plastic flowers in Brooklyn Heights. Perhaps you have to be a NY er to appreciate what that connotes. They offered to pay for live flowers to no avail. Is Jehovah the God of fake flowers? All the more reason to flee from the Society. I bet they eat Wonder Bread rather than H & H bagels or Zito's bread. I read a thread from a Bethelite here about the lack of food at Bethel. I cried. It helped me understand my father more.
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moomanchu
Thanks for all the comments.
I also think the old churches are amazing and have been to several in NYC.
Also the First Church of Christ in Philadelphia is really interesting.
It doesn't have the architecture so much but has quite a history ... George Washington went there,
also I remember seeing a a baptismal bowl from the 1600's that was there from the Penn family of Pennsylvania.
I would like to go to the Masonic lodge in Philadelphia, check some records and stuff ya never know. LOL
Also am planning on getting some pics standing next the WT pagan pyramid in Pittsburgh.
bed time
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undercover
I don't know if the WTS has an official stance on visiting historic churches...for the architecture, art or history aspects.
Someone mentioned it being a "conscience matter" which is probably as official as you're gonna get.
I came from a particularly conservative JW family where the thought of stepping foot in a church for any reason was forbidden. I remember my mom refusing to turn around in church parking lots, when she missed a turn or was lost. This was the environment I grew up in and it was accepted as "official" policy without ever really thinking about it.
But as I got older I saw that some of my JW friends, MSs and elders even, where visiting historic churches when in Europe. That got me to looking into it and I never could find anything to discourage it. In fact, over the years, the WTS has printed stories about ancient places and people, most tied to the religions of the world. Someone had to do the research which is no different than my going to the Vatican for the interest of learning its history and admiring the art and architecture.
The first time I went in a church it was kind of eerie, having grown up with the superstitions about them, but I quickly got over it and now when I travel abroad, Europe especially, I take in the historic churches, cathedrals and even mosques (if open to non-Muslims).
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blondie
When the WTS held international conventions in 1973, I went over to Europe. We flew back out of Rome and found that the WTS had scheduled side tours of the Vatican for jws on the tours they planned. No one gave it a moment's thought. I have toured many churches over the years. I think the WTS would frown on participating in any events though.
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Lady Lee
fells like eons ago but one summer I arranged for a trip to one of the oldest churches in Montreal for many of the kids. I think we might have been about 30 people with the adults included. The trip was "educational". I made sure to point out all the money that must have gone in to building it and maintaining it - unlike our rather plain KH (before they started getting quite luxurious). I pointed out the crutches where supposed disabled people were cured and of course we knew miracles didn't happen anymore.
The most interesting "find" was a huge mural of John the Baptist carrying a cross. That could not be right. If the cross didn't become a Christian symbol until after Christ died on it why was John the Baptist carrying it, especially since he was killed before Christ? Well there was also the issue of the cross itself but that was secondary to how wrong the mural was; they couldn't even get their own history straight
I think it was seeing things like the mural that stopped the elders from giving me any hassles about taking the kids on these tours around the city during the summers.
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ShirleyW
When you attend meetings for most of your life in a building shaped liked a box with fold up and chairs and no windows, I would think that's why the main consensus here by those who posted say that they see nothing wrong with visiting cathedrals and the like.
WHen I watch Rick Steve's travel show, the main interest for me is always when he visits the Cathedrals built 200 and more years ago, such handmade detail and such and the tall arched ceilings makes wanna tour Europe just to visit such places
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LongHairGal
MOOMANCHU: I think it is a conscience matter. I myself have been to Europe several times and found the cathedrals fascinating. I felt it was about art and history, like visiting a museum. I even had to use the restroom in the Vatican (yes, they have toilets for the tourists). One old judgmental lady in the congregation thought it was terrible that I dared to set foot into a church but it didn't bother me - maybe because I was raised Roman Catholic and like the smell of incense and the spooky old churches.
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moomanchu
Yes, they charge to see the Sistine Chapel. I went there, so yes, I paid a fee to the Catholic Church to see it. Did it rattle my conscience? No, because in my mind, I was there to see the art.
As for the money, these places require maintenance so I see my money as contributing towards its conservation.
How is this not supporting the church?
I agree with you guys the WT will not punish someone for visiting churches.
However they do play their little head games to strongly discourage.
Where do you want to be, in the Sistine Chapel or a kingdom hall when armageddon strikes?
Anyone remember all those pics from the litterature where lightning bolts and earthquakes are destroying various churches?
I think I remember one picture of the vatican buildings being destroyed.
What a shame that Jehovah will destroy all these treasures.