An Elder That Helped Me

dontplaceliterature

Has anyone in this forum ever had an Elder in the organization discuss "apostate" teachings with them in a non-threatening, mutually enlightening way? Obviously, there are many of you who have talked with Elders about "apostate" ideas, and have been disfellowshipped/disciplined for it. That's not really what I'm interested in hearing about in this thread, no offense.

The reason I ask:

A few years ago, an Elder from a neighboring congregation invited me to lunch out of the blue. I have no idea what prompted him to take an interest in me, as he was considerably older than me. Perhaps he thought I was a good conversationalist? Anyhow...an incredible friendship developed and we began meeting one another weekly, sometimes mulitple times a week, and discussing different subjects. Very quickly, those conversations turned to discussions about our mutual concern regarding WBTS teachings, which turned into out-and-out bashing of certain teachings and ideas, which turned into a mutual agreement to talk about these things with no one else for fear of apostasy accusations. The funny thing is, even though our spiritual conversations were mostly of a contrary nature, I never felt more spiritually strong than I did during the early part of our friendship.

I have pages and pages of e-mails that we sent back and forth to one another questioning the Society's stand regarding certain matters, and the transformation of our organization as it continues to come up with new Rules and do away with old ones.

I wouldn't be suprised if that Elder is a member of this forum. But, I have no idea.

Have any of you ever had a personal confidant inside the organization who was serving actively as an Elder (and was not a family member) that would discuss such things with you in an open forum, free from the threat of an apostasy accusation?

Just curious. If you care to relate any specific experiences, I'd be glad to read about them! :)

LostGeneration

No.

That elder is an apostate (according to the WT) and just trying to free a few minds before he exits himself.

Thinking and discussion like that is not allowed in cults.

bohm

dontplacelitterature -- well, basically what happened back in the 80s with Raymond was that people began to have such conversations, Raymond was one of them. I think its safe to say that if the watchtower went into those situations with the mindset: "We are right, you are wrong, and let us try to reason and show you why..." instead of "we are right, you are wrong, accept or loose your social circle inside. Shouldnt you be going door to door instead btw?" this board could pretty much shut down tomorrow.

pirata

I thought there was an elder I could talk to, he certainly seemed to be aware of the issues. However, anytime I tried to bring up anything remotely off the beaten dub path, he'd come up with a though-stopping comment like "Jehovah will clarify matters in his own time". So I stopped while I was still ahead.

ThomasCovenant

''Has anyone in this forum ever had an Elder in the organization discuss "apostate" teachings with them in a non-threatening, mutually enlightening way?''

No.

And neither has any elder ever telephoned, written or knocked my door (to my knowledge) to ask about either myself, my wife or our teenage children since we left off from attending meetings.

Considering that they firmly believe that our very lives are at stake it strikes me that they don't really give a hoot and are actually very selfish.

In other words exactly like I used to be when I was a Witness. I wasn't a blind bit interested in bringing anyone into the ''truth'' because I didn't believe it.

If they really believed it they would be begging me to return.

The attitude is actually, when you think about it,

''Ah well, he's buggered. What's on tv?''

undercover

LostG is right...

That elder is an apostate...even if in his own mind he thinks he's not. He may not associating with other apostates, or searching on-line, but the fact that he found a listening, sympathetic ear to his theories makes him apostate as far as the WTS goes.

If he were to share these thoughts and ideas with the wrong person(s), he'd be called in and hung out to dry quicker'n you can say "Judge Rutherford was an alcoholic"

Mad Sweeney

Thomas Covenant is right about many (most?) JWs not fully believing their own doctrine. If they did truly believe they wouldn't behave as they do. They, like many of us KNOW something is wrong with the Borg but they know there is nothing they can do about it. All they can do is "wait on Jehovah" or leave and suffer shunning. It's a rock-and-a-hard-place for many who are in the congregation. So they put all the stuff they don't believe on the cognitive dissonance shelf year after year. Eventually they either grow old and die or the shelf collapses and they get out, suffer through the consequences, and start a new life.

respectful_observer

DPL,

Yes, I can think of several individuals. One is a close friend with whom I'll sometimes end up in very deep discussion with regarding the organizational and/or scriptural reasoning behind congregation decisions. Although I count him as a close friend, I understand the position he still is required to fill and an Elder-- therefore I tend to frame my discussions around hypothethicals where I change the facts and circumstances but make sure the fundamental principles match up as much as possible. He's more than willing to discuss "hypotheticals" knowing full-well how they relate back to the real matter at hand.

A second elder I know is an older man who has been a JW for 40+ years. He is used heavily at the circuit and district level, but he freely admits to often writing letters to the branch questioning certain core teachings. He shared with me point-blank that there may better explanations for one of our most central doctrines and what he thought it more likely should be.

A third elder I know very well has openly challenged the reasoning behind the blood issue-- to me, his extended family, even to Bethalites. Again, he's well-used at the circuit and district level, but does not hesitate to verbally test out the strengths and weaknesses of the organization's current stance on the issue.

R_O

dontplaceliterature

@R_O

We must both come from very liberal areas. It seems to me that so many decisions, and the view of these types of questions varies greatly from region to region, even congregation to congregation.

I understand where some of the others in this thread are coming from, as I've also been in an ultra-conservative, crew-cut, white-shirt-only, congregation and would never have considered bringing up the slightest notion of a disagreement with a WBTS teaching. I feel that the majority of the congregations are like that, although there may have been a shift...and thus the need for WBTS to "tighten the grip" as so many say they are doing.

respectful_observer

@DPL

It does appear as though we are both from liberal areas. For what it's worth, even the congregations I've spent time with in other countries are very similar to what I've experienced my whole life. I suspect that's because they've typically been either metro-center congregations or areas where there is a high density of colleges/universities.

I've heard the stories of "white-shirt-only" congregations, but thankfully have never experienced one first-hand. I do feel for those that have only experienced ultra-conservative congregations. Understandably it makes for a completely different experience.

R_O

An Elder That Helped Me

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