I just finished Crisis of Conscience today....

by dontplaceliterature 39 Replies latest jw experiences

  • dontplaceliterature
    dontplaceliterature

    ***********

    DISCLAIMER:

    I really hate to hijack this thread, but I wasted my one 24hr post on that Window Washing thread last night. I don't think I'll have an opportunity to post this up here if I wait, and would like to get it done before the weekend. I will likely re-post it in its own thread after my posting restrictions are removed...so here goes:

    ***********

    I just finished reading Crisis of Conscience today. I got the book just over a week ago, and finishing it so quickly was quite a feat for me personally. I just don't have enough time for private reading.

    First, I'd like to say that it was, as many of you know, a great read. Although it got a little slow for me in Chapter 6 (Double Standards), that chapter was still quite informative. I just felt like the point could have been made a bit quicker. Generally, I didn't find anything in the book I was in disagreement with or that I didn't fully believe was true. I really tried to read the book from an objective stand point, expecting there would be plenty of bias, but my impresssion was that the language and descriptions were very fair, and honest.

    I can't say that my mind as been totally blown, but it certainly was eye-opening. I've been sceptical about the Governing Body and the modus operandi of the organization since I was a teenager. This publication merely re-affirmed my suspicions. What I have come to appreciate more fully, though, is just how "programmed" we have become as Jehovah's Witnesses.

    For anyone who is a current active member of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, and has doubts about the appropriateness of reading this book: Please note, this IS NOT an attack on individual witnesses and their justification for membership in the organization. It is not an attack on Jehovah's Witness doctrine. In part, it is a description of Ray Franz's experiences as a life-long Witness, and Governing Body member. It is also an honest description of organizational history, especially as to how it pertains to the evolution of our doctrine, and the methods in which decisions are made about which interpretation of Scripture we are to accept. Most of this information is not available to the average Jehovah's Witness, and while it may not necessarily cause you to defect from the orginization, it will certainly make you reconsider how seriously you should take advise from "The Faithful and Discreet Slave."

    Spoiler Alert!

    The funny thing is, I was expecting that Ray Franz was disfellowshipped for promoting doctrines contrary to the WBTS publications among members of the orginization. When, in fact, he was disfellowshipped for something completely different: Merely having a meal with a disassociated member of the congregation (When at the time, it had only recently become the Society's stand, that association with such ones was grounds for disfellowshipping). Last time I checked, there is only one reason a person could ever be removed from the congregation (according to what's in writing): UNREPENTANCE. He wasn't even given an opportunity to display it, before the rug was pulled out from under him. The manner in which his former friends on the Governing Body, and the local elders handled the situation, was heart-breaking.

    Some specific comments (I'm sure I'd have many more if I had taken the time to write notes earlier in reading the book...):

    On page 286, when Ed Dunlap was being examined by his Judicial Committee, the following exchange happened:

    "When questioned about the organization's forming of rules, [Ed] stressed that the Christian is not under law but under undeserved kindness (or grace). He said that faith and love were greater forces for righteousness than rules could ever be. Robert Wallen said, "But Ed, I like to have someone tell me what to do." Having in mind the apostle's words at Hebrews, chapter five, verses 13 and 14, that Christians should not be like babes but like mature persons "who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong," Ed answered, "Then you need to read your Bible more.""

    I litereally laughed out loud when I read that. It was a slam dunk comment in my opinion. I do appreciate the need of Christs followers to be sheeplike. But giving up your entire ability for reason and relying on being fed by spoon at the Watchtower Study each week, merely repeating what's in the paragraph (Like a child learning its first words), betrays the import of the Scripture in Hebrews mentioned in the quote. What's the point of having your "perceptive powers" trained, if you never are permetted to use them. You may argue that as a Witness you use them all the time. I really feel like this is untrue. Witnesses are discouraged, to the point of threats at times, from reading anything that contradicts an official Watchtower teaching, or pamphlets that come from another church. How then would you be able to perceive anything? How can you test the truth of any subject if you only know or ever see one side of it? (1 John 4:1)

    On Page 287, when Ed Dunlap was told to "wait on the organization" if he did not agree with some of its teachings:

    "If they were willing to accept the possibility that the organization's teaching on these points might be no more solid and enduring than [five years], how could they possibly use them as a basis for deciding whether this man was a loyal servant of God or an apostate?....

    ...The logic of such an approach can be understood only if one accepts and embraces the premise that an individual's interests--including his good name, his hard-earned reputation, his years of life spent in service--are all expendable if they interfere with an organization's objectives."

    I've heard this very same thing before, and always assumed it was the course of humility to "keep quiet" and "fall in line." I appreciate fully the need to be sheep-like in following Christ's direction. It just had never occurred to me in the past that Christ's direction, and The Watchtower's direction could be two different things, at least not the way it FULLY occurs to me now.

    On page 289, there is a Scriptural quote from Acts 20:29:

    "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness."

    I had never really applied this to the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses before. Really, is Jesus not talking to those who are his followers? Who then are oppressive inside the Jehovah's Witness Congregation? Who are not treating the flock with tenderness? Could it be many of the Elders, Circiut Overseers, and other Branch Members have scattered throughout them these "opressive ones"? Certainly it must be so, because Jesus foretold it. How would a person know when a fellow beleiver has been treated abusively when these "abused ones" are likely expelled from the congregation before they have an opportunity to cry out for help from their fellow brothers. The meetings where there fate is decided are private, and secret. Once they are removed, the rest of the flock is threatened with such expulsion should they be found communicating with such ones. Really, how would you ever know if there WOLVES among you, unless you saw how the WOLVES devoured others in the fold?

    I would not accuse the entire body of Elders world-wide of oppression, but you are a fool if you don't recognize that there is entire system in our organization built on conformity. You must recognize that this would exist even among the local body of elders, and that like it or not, the oppressive ones will likely have the strongest voice among the group. The rest of the elders will fall in line with the strongest voice, and then the entire spirit of the body becomes an oppressive one.

    Page 293 contains a portion of a letter to all Circiut Overseers from the Branch. It says in part:

    "Keep in mind that to be disfellowshipped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August 1, 1980, Watchtower, "The word 'apostasy' comes from a Greek term that means 'a standing away from,' 'a falling away, defection,' 'rebellion, abandonment.'" Therefore, if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believeing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostatizing. Extended, kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However, if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the 'slave class,' then appropriate judicial action should be taken."

    For any Elders or recent Ex-Elders on this forum: Is this still the official stand from the Branch regarding apostasy? Could I be disfellowshipped SOLEY because I do not agree that Christ's presence began in 1914?

    If that is still the official stand, then I should have been yanked into the "bad room" a long time ago. I was on a shephearding call about 4 months ago with my Coordinator, and specifically said TO A TEENAGER (in front of his parents) who was having problems listening to his parents instructions: "...you might as well get used to going along with things you don't agree with. When you get a job, you will do things your boss asks that you disagree with. When you get married...you will do things your wife wants you to do, despite your feelings. As a Ministerial Servant and lifelong servant of Jehovah, I can give you a list of things I don't agree with that we teach as an organization, but I still have to be humble and follow Jehovah's Organization."

    If this is the official stand, then either this elder agrees with what I said, and feels the same way...or he just didn't hear me properly. I was very clear when I said it though. No doubt about it.

    On page 296 Ray says regarding the Governing Body:

    "The concept or mental image they have of "the organization" seems almost to take on a personality of its own, so that the concept itself controls them, moves them or restrains them, by molding their thinking, their attitudes, their judgements. I do not believe that many of them would take the position they now take if they thought only in terms of God, Christ, the Bible, and the interests -- not of an organization -- but of their Christian brothers, fellow humans. The insertion of the existing concept of "the organization," however, radically alters their thinking and viewpoint, becomes, in fact, the dominant, controlling force."

    This made a lot of sense to me. Keeping the status quo is more imporant than keeping someone in the congregation by acknowledging fault, or passing on suspected mistakes. When I wrote down this note, I had something really profound on my mind, but now it escapes me. Perhaps your comments on this section will jar my memory?

    On page 310 Ray mentions the "predictable" course of his Judicial meeting about associating with Peter Gregerson:

    "Dan referred to First Corinthians, chapter five, in support of the position. I pointed out that the apostle there spoke of not associating with persons called brothers who were fornicators, idolaters, revilers, drunkards and extortioners. I had no such persons among my associates and would not want them in my home. But surely they did not consider Peter Gregerson as included among that kind of people? Neither responded."

    Where in the scriptures is the justifcation the Witness use for disfellowshipping on any other grounds besides those 5 things mentioned? Does anyone know?

    On page 330-331 the story is related of two brothers (heavyweights ) in Ireland who went to visit the Governing Body to get some questions answered over the issue of disassociated ones. Many of the brothers in Ireland were up in arms over this, and these two wanted to have the matter straightened out, so that they could admonish the friends back home and set things straight. They were told:

    "Put it in writing."

    The attitude and response that these two men received from The Governing Body made me so mad I wanted to throw the book across the room. I cannot express the level of disappointment I felt. We constantly brag about the brotherly love that permiates every level of the fabric of our organization. Clearly, this is not the case. Those two would have had an easier time getting face to face with the President of The United States.

    Pages 340-341 brought up a point that I had never considered before, when comparing The Watchtower Organization to the Jewish people of ancient times:

    "Above all, the teaching that they are, exclusively, the one people on earthy with whom God has dealings, and that the direction they receive from teh Governing Body is from a divine "channel," helps produce a sense of cohesion, of specialness. The view of all other persons as "worldlings" contributes to this feeling of a close-knit relationship...Because of this, I think it is equally as difficult for the average Witness to contemplate serving God without [Branch Offices, Assembly Halls, Kingdom Halls] as it was for Jewish persons in the first century to contemplate such service apart from the religious arrangements they were accustomed to. The impressive temple buildings and courtyards at Jerusalem, with temple service carried out by a large staff of hundreds and thousands of dedicated workers, Levites and priests, their claim to be exclusively the chosen people of God, with all others viewed as unclean, stood in tremendous contrast to the Christians of that time, who had no large buildings, who met in simple homes, who had no separate priestly or Levite class, and who humbly acknowledged that 'in every nation the man that fears God and works righteousness is acceptable to him.'"

    The feeling of Jehovah's Witness exceptionalism is apparent among the individuals in the congregation. Unfortunately, it is also apparrent to some in the world. My employer specifically complained to me about this. A prevoius employee who had been a Witness constantly badgered everyone at the office to death about the Truth. She always had her Bible on her desk, and was perceived as fanatical. I personally know this woman, and she is not a fanatic, she's just trying to be a "good Witness." Nonetheless, the result is the same. This tendency to be "special" has annoyed me very much of the last 10 years. It seems so...."un-Christian" and elitest. Where is the humility in that attitude?

    I had never really considered the fact that the early Christians were more private with their meetings. "Congregations" were in a more informal atmosphere, which I have often argued was more conducive to meaningful Scriptural discussions. Then, all at once, our only chance of that ever evolving was eliminated: The bookstudy arrangement was scrapped.

    On page 378 the following point was made:

    "The membership of Jehovah's Witnesses experiences a constant entry and departure of thousands of persons annually. As a result of that turnover, along with a measure of annual growth, today the membership contains a larger percentage of new members who know virtually nothing of the excited expectations stirred up regarding 1975, and even less of earlier failed perdictions."

    This also is monumentally important. I had never really thought of this before, but am now going to take inventory of my congregation to see just how many were around when that happened. I wonder what percentage of the orginization is currently made up of such individuals?

    On page 382 regarding "The Anointed Class":

    "Outside of the [Governing] Body, being of the "anointed" counts for nothing as to becoming an elder, a traveling overseer, member of a Branch Committee, or holding any other organizational position."

    I have always recognized this to be the case. It's funny that The Watchtower officially teaches that it is the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" that is appointed over the "domestics," and that this title represents all within the annointed class. Unless I am in error. Yet, indiviual "annointed" brother have no more authority or "say" than the average Joe. That makes the whole doctrine of "Faithful and Discreet Slave = Annointed" kind of pointless. The should just change the teaching to "The Faithful and Discreet Slave = The Governing Body."

    I'm sure there is much more that I could say about the book, and likely will once the comments start coming in. The only contrary thing I have to say is this:

    Maybe I misunderstood him, but it seems to me that Raymond Franz believes that everyone who gets salvation will experience it by means of a Heavenly Ressurection. I just don't think this adds up, wth regard to the Scriptures I am familiar with. Could it be that there is a disconnect in the translation/understanding of the term Paradise versus that of Heaven?

    I have no desire at all to live in Heaven. The Scriptures specifically say that God didn't form The Earth "simply for nothing," but rather to be "inhabited." -- Isaiah 45:18

    Common sense would tell me that the Earth is not a "Heavenly Springboard" or "Heavinly Testing Station." While I do agree that the number 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is likely/possibly figurative, I just don't see the logic in reasoning that everyone who gains salvation goes to heaven.

    Looking forward to your comments.....

    dontplaceliterature

  • Soldier77
    Soldier77

    Yup, loved reading the book myself. Glad I did. Great stuff.

    Just the comment made by Ed:

    "When questioned about the organization's forming of rules, [Ed] stressed that the Christian is not under law but under undeserved kindness (or grace). He said that faith and love were greater forces for righteousness than rules could ever be. Robert Wallen said, "But Ed, I like to have someone tell me what to do." Having in mind the apostle's words at Hebrews, chapter five, verses 13 and 14, that Christians should not be like babes but like mature persons "who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong," Ed answered, "Then you need to read your Bible more.""

    Is so true. From the top down the WTS (GB/FDS) treats its members like idiots, second rate citizens and children. We are told we need to wait on the FDS (GB) and take their word as from God. It's utter bullshit... I can't even follow through with my thought, I'm so disgusted with the WTS.

  • mentallyfree31
    mentallyfree31

    A big thing for me was when Ray points to the 1905 Watchtower magazine, and shows where Charles Russell wrote himself the events of how he came to have his peculiar beliefs. He received a flyer of Nelson Barbour's work. He recognized it as the religion Adventism. He was convinced that Barbour was onto something with this 1874 date of Christ's prescense. He paid Barbour's transportation to Pennsylvania, and listened to Barbour. Barbour's evidence satisfied him. He started preaching it. The rest is history.

    Here is the actual quote from the July 15, 1905 Watchtower magazine: (I have highlighted key points):

    ---------------------------------------------

    It was about January, 1876, that my attention was specially drawn to the subject of prophetic time, as it relates to these doctrines and hopes. It came about in this way: I received a paper called The Herald of the Morning, sent by its editor, Mr. N. H. Barbour. When I opened it I at once identified it with Adventism from the picture on its cover, and examined it with some curiosity to see what time they would next set for the burning of the world. But judge of my surprise and gratification, when I learned from its contents that the Editor was beginning to get his eyes open on the subjects that for some years had so greatly rejoiced our hearts here in Allegheny--that the object of our Lord's return is not to destroy, but to bless all the families of the earth, and that his coming would be thief-like, and not in flesh, but as a spirit-being, invisible to men; and that the gathering of his Church and the separation of the "wheat" from the "tares" would progress in the end of this age without the world's being aware of it. I rejoiced to find others coming to the same advanced position, but was astonished to find the statement very cautiously set forth, that the editor believed the prophecies to indicate that the Lord was already present in the world (unseen and invisible), and that the harvest work of gathering the wheat was already due,--and that this view was warranted by the time-prophecies which but a few months before he supposed had failed.

    Here was a new thought: Could it be that the time prophecies which I had so long despised, because of their misuse by Adventists, were really meant to indicate when the Lord would be invisibly present to set up his Kingdom --a thing which I clearly saw could be known in no other way? It seemed, to say the least, a reasonable, a very reasonable thing, to expect that the Lord would inform his people on the subject--especially as he had promised that the faithful should not be left in darkness with the world, and that though the day of the Lord would come upon all others as a thief in the night (stealthily, unawares), it should not be so to the watching, earnest saints.--` I Thes. 5:4 `. I recalled certain arguments used by my friend Jonas Wendell and other Adventists to prove that 1873 would witness the burning of the world, etc.--the chronology of the world showing that the six thousand years from Adam ended with the beginning of 1873--and other arguments drawn from the Scriptures and supposed to coincide. Could it be that these time arguments, which I had passed by as unworthy of attention, really contained an important truth which they had misapplied? Anxious to learn, from any quarter, whatever God had to teach, I at once wrote to Mr. Barbour, informing him of my harmony on other points and desiring to know particularly why, and upon what Scriptural evidences, he held that Christ's presence and the harvesting of the Gospel age dated from the Autumn of 1874. The answer showed that my surmise had been correct, viz.: that the time arguments, chronology, etc., were the same as used by Second Adventists in 1873, and explained how Mr. Barbour and Mr. J. H. Paton, of Michigan, a co-worker with him, had been regular Second Adventists up to that time; and that when the date 1874 had passed without the world being burned, and without their seeing Christ in the flesh, they were for a time dumb-founded.

    They had examined the time-prophecies that had seemingly passed unfulfilled, and had been unable to find any flaw, and had begun to wonder whether the time was right and their expectations wrong,--whether the views of restitution and blessing to the world, which myself and others were teaching, might not be the things to look for. It seems that not long after their 1874 disappointment, a reader of the Herald of the Morning, who had a copy of the Diaglott, noticed something in it which he thought peculiar,--that in ` Matt. 24:27 , 37 , 39 `, the word which in our common version is rendered coming is translated presence. This was the clue; and, following it, they had been led through prophetic time toward proper views regarding the object and manner of the Lord's return. I, on the contrary, was led first to proper views of the object and manner of our Lord's return and then to the examination of the time for these things, indicated in God's Word. Thus God leads his children often from different starting points of truth; but where the heart is earnest and trustful, the result must be to draw all such together. But there were no books or other publications setting forth the time-prophecies as then understood, so I paid Mr. Barbour's expenses to come to see me at Philadelphia (where I had business engagements during the summer of 1876), to show me fully and Scripturally, if he could, that the prophecies indicated 1874 as the date at which the Lord's presence and "the harvest" began. He came, and the evidences satisfied me. Being a person of positive convictions and fully consecrated to the Lord, I at once saw that the special times in which we live have an important bearing upon our duty and work as Christ's disciples; that, being in the time of harvest, the harvest-work should be done; and that Present Truth was the sickle by which the Lord would have us do a gathering and reaping work everywhere among his children.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    There you have it, out of Charles Taze Russell's own mouth. It was nothing to do with God or some holy spirit. He found an Adventist preacher named Nelson Barbour, and liked his ideas, and started preaching them. Period.

    -mentallyfree31-

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    DPL...I'm glad you found C of C a good read, and more importantly, an honest read. Ray's follow up book, In Search of Christian Freedom, goes into a bit more depth and focuses on how we can come to enjoy true freedom outside of legalism. It is definitely worth your time to get and read as well...

  • mentallyfree31
    mentallyfree31

    Agreed. "In Search of Christian Freedom" is an excellent book. Huge book too. So many additional things are covered.

    -MF31-

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    Could I be disfellowshipped SOLEY because I do not agree that Christ's presence began in 1914?

    Depends on what type of elder you encounter you might not get df. When I began wts research I told the elders who visited me that I didn't believe in 1914 about a year before I DA myself and they asked if I stated my "opinion" to anyone else to which I didn't at the time and they left me alone. (at the time PO didn't even know about 1874 and pyramid calculations and all that was found in Thy Kingdom Come book ) But also at that time they asked me if I believed wts was God's org. and at that time I still thought it was but was corrupted. After I did my research I had no doubt in my mind that wts was a fraud and I was duped into a cult while young and naive.

    As for heavenly hope - well, if you believe in the bible the New Testament doesn't really teach paradise earth if you read it without any preconceived ideas. At least you won't get WTS idea out of it. I can only think of Mt5:5 where you inherit the earth but that can mean anything you want it to mean.

  • zoiks
    zoiks

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on CoC, DPL. I personally found it to be very eye-opening, a little heartbreaking, but also uplifting.

    You would enjoy In Search of Christian Freedom, I think. Especially if you are a bible believer (full disclosure: I am not). In it, Ray gives a scriptural smack-down to many WTS doctrines and practices, in his own gentle way.

  • nolongerwaiting
    nolongerwaiting

    I haven't read it yet but I have it waiting for me. I am still making my way through Combating Cult Mind Control.

    NLW's wife.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Crises is THE book to read before anything else, IMO. I LOVE Combating Cult Mind Control, but Crises shoes that the org is just a cult. Then you should move on to "Combating" to find out how to get rid of it.

  • wary
    wary

    Hi dontplace literature!.

    You , if you are as intelligent as you imply, will work it out for yourself. CoC will help however, it shocked me.

    You where bought up in a cult and you are awakening!

    Your thoughts are normal and your reasoning will become harsher and angrier as you realize you where sucked in like the rest of us!

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