How Important is knowing the Truth, Really?

by cameo-d 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I have just been to a funeral of an old person who lived all their life as a Jehovah's Witness. They had a full life, with many friends, lots of interests, and a full range of experiences. I cannot think of a single way in which their life would have been improved by knowing the 'truth' about when Jerusalem fell, how the flood could not have happened, why evolution is true, the history of the Watchtower Society, or any of the other 'truths' ex-Jehovah's Witnesses consider so important.

    I guess it comes down to whether you feel people in high control churches and cults are victims or willing dupes. If religion didn't offer something noone would participate. Many feel the benefits of membership are worth the sacrifice. Obviously I don't or I would still be in one. Then again who knows the inner turmoil your friend experienced, how many of us here projected an image inconsistant with our thoughts? In my experience those who seem truly easy going and well balanced within the JWs are actually just church goers with friends, in which case doctrinal matters are nearly irrelevent.

    And even if this person was completely invested in the JW doctrine, suffered no doubts or worries about loosing familiy and friends, did their ignorance harm anyone? Consider this, people who seem truly contented with the JW belief system are not likely to have ambitions of curing cancer, producing more food or negotiating treaties are they? Did they promote united communities with their religious views or did they foster divisions? Not that we are all going to be doctors but we are all either part of the problem or the cure. To diehard JWs the 'world' is merely the stage for their preaching not a family. Has their ignorance hurt anyone? Yes. Most definitely.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    That being said I try to live by the principle that attacking somone's beliefs is assault but concealing the facts from someone requesting or needing them is deception.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I have just been to a funeral of an old person who lived all their life as a Jehovah's Witness. They had a full life, with many friends, lots of interests, and a full range of experiences. I cannot think of a single way in which their life would have been improved by knowing the 'truth' about.......

    And he or his children never needed a blood transfusion or wanted to go to college or was gay...

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    I don't know, only u do.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    you said: "It is precisely because we don't have the originals that what we do have IS GUESSes and SPECULATION. Further, it isn't reconstruction from mere copies of originals because we don't even have that! No first generation copies exist either.

    The foundation of original writings was ORAL, you'll recall. So, even the original manuscripts were distillations of verbal communication best described as hearsay."...

    we don't have the originals NOW, but what we have may have been copied from originals and why wouldn't they be?...you're looking for a nefarious conspiracy where there isn't one! The NT says, "it is written"...about Jesus and His ministry, so we can go to the OT and learn about Him and the reason for His ministry. The OT wasn't "oral" like the NT was. So what we need to know about Jesus being the King and Redeemer and only Saviour is "traditionally" written. + paul's letters may have circulated among the churches...they were likely copied not orally transmitted. we're talking about leaders among the congregations that could read and so probably could write as well.

    "A pharmacist will not fill a prescription from a doctor unless they can see the original slip in his own handwriting. You can't walk in with YOUR recopied version and get the pills!" ...that's not what I said...a person will take pills the dr. prescribes relying on him without test results...an educated guess but a guess just the same.

    "You can't offer less than best evidence (originals) in a court of law without stipulation either." hello!...people swear on the bible(word of God) as the highest authority that there is that one could "lie" towards in a court of law. the evidence is only as "good" as the people giving it, really. if someone's motive is to mislead they may do that if they can think they can get away with it. YOU put the motivation to mislead squarely on the shoulders of the church when they gave the best evidence that they had.

    "A recopy of a third and fourth generation verbal remembrance is the best we have which clearly indicates God Almighty was NOT INTERESTED in preserving anything written as a guide for pure worship!" ...I would say that because God works with human beings that die and that have faulty rememberances He's DID use the means best suited to the task. He also said that the Holy Spirit would lead the followers of Jesus Christ into all truth...now if you want to look for a nefarious conspiracy you need not look any farther than those that seek to use THE INVISIBLE as a cover for their misleading ways.

    "The Catholic Church tried always to keep Scripture on the down-low and pump up their own Tradition and Authority instead." ...the RCC turned into some nasty business for a long time but/and even the scriptures refute some of their wrong ideas...surely that says something about their desire to conspire from the get go.

    "The Authority of Official Orthodoxy ruined Christianity and continues to run rampant in Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body." ...not so...Jesus sent out a group to evangelize, productive groups have authoritive leaders. The GB is a whole different ball of wax that (it can be agreed apon) neither holds to orthodox tenents nor practices basic christian "community" of build up and edification...the GB builds ITSELF up and tears everyone else down...you must agree they are quite different that the "modern" RCC?

    "There is simply no "there" there to interpret." ...you miss the point! there is a WHO...and they meet at a there...to do a what...in the name of the WHO.

    love michelle

    p.s. why are the pages all wonky on this thread?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Well, if there is NO truth then ANYTHING we say means NOTHING.

    I'm not sure anybody said that nothing was True!

    A thing is what it is. (duh) A statement about what IS should be demonstrable in the practical everyday world without resorting to mystical hijinks.

    Statements of mere opinion will vary according to taste. These aren't statements of Truth so much as personal evaluations.

    Statements of informed opinion will follow experience, study and some consensus. It still remains that he facts be demonstrated as corroboration.

    Statements of expertise follow in depth analysis, experimentations and peer review with an integration of facts from cause to effect.

    Now, we get to the silly part...

    Statements of FAITH...

    Statements of Faith follow a willingness to accept what we hope and wish a pray has factual demonstration although there is none!

    It is a reliance on mystical authority which stems from an interpretation of augurs, portents and pronouncements (usually of an esoteric and distant source.)

    The Governing Body is a mystical body of shaman whose interpretations of scripture and world events lead them toward official pronouncements which they call THE TRUTH.

    History has proved them wrong, wrong and wrong.

    Only stubborn wishful-thinking and abandonment of intellectual honesty can invest these frauds with any authority whatsoever.

    But, TRUTH does exist as a factual statements which describe palpable reality.

    The less visible a proof becomes the fuzzier and more mystical it is.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    But, TRUTH does exist as a factual statements which describe palpable reality.

    If you had a kid, where woudl you send it to learn the truth?

    I mean, if you wanted him/her to learn math or science of biology or even philosophy, you would be able to five the right schools for that, but what about the truth?

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    Is the quest of finding the real truth even attainable? Is the quest of trying to find out worth the risk and the sacrifice of losing the love of friends and family? Oh, I know many of you will say the "love" is fake or not true if it can't hold up to scrutinty. But, in this life, and in this situation, it's pretty much all you got and all you're going to get, right? What's the alternative...being on your own in the cold?

    So many answers. All of them have merit, regardless of their differing.
    The man they called Buddha (the real man behind the myths if he existed) would say that truth is attainable.
    I sort of feel that our logic and rational thinking prevent us from absolutely attaining real truth. If you leave room for being wrong, then we can never know that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is or is not the Supreme Being in the universe.

    Push that aside though. Personal truth can be attained. I think everyone needs their own spiritual journey. Many don't take it. Many are satisfied with the latest distractions that keep them from such a journey- employment, family, hobbies, video games, drag racing, football, etc. That's great for them if that's enough. By your very asking of the question, "Is [it] worth the risk and the sacrifice of losing the love of friends and family?" you are revealing part of your answer. For you, it almost certainly will have to be a quiet private spiritual journey for 'real truth' of a personal nature. You might need to avoid sharing any of your journey with those that might take their silly JW stand against it.

    My personal truth search necessitated that I learn enough about the JW's and the Bible and Christianity to either stay with some part of it or dismiss it all. While I found value in some of it, I didn't need to practice any of it once I knew it was a mythology just as much as worship of the Roman and Greek gods was founded in mythology. But that was my personal truths. You may find value there worth sticking around for.

    Some find that personal truth of the origins and development of life, the universe, and everything doesn't require studies of philosophy or physics or biology. Their personal truths might not go any further than embracing a peaceful path in life or passing on wisdom to their offspring or enjoyment of the dance or the song or the sunset, or some combination of those. If I had realized that earlier on, I wouldn't have needed to learn so much about the origins of the Bible and the religions founded on Abraham.

    For others, even the reactions of dangerous cult mind-controlled family members would not keep them from sharing what real truths they find or from hiding their spiritual journey. If they lose someone over it, they feel they don't really need that person. They know they can gain true friends elsewhere. That is also just as correct for them as a private spiritual journey might be for you or I. They are not automatically "out in the cold." For me though, I have a bond with my JW mother due to being raised by her. I have a bond beyond the stupid religion with her and my JW wife. As long as I am not severely limited in my spiritual journey in life (I cannot register to vote and I cannot put up holiday decorations- which I don't feel any need to do) I can share it with my ex-JW friends and my non-JW friends and family and I don't need to worry about losing my family over it. That could change due to the cult rules and enforcement of their rules, but I will deal with that when it's time to cross such bridges.

  • dssynergy
    dssynergy

    "Consider this, people who seem truly contented with the JW belief system are not likely to have ambitions of curing cancer, producing more food or negotiating treaties are they?" -PeacefulPete

    I think that the lazy, stupid, or incompetent people are able to justify their impotence with the "waiting for the New System" or "waiting onJehovah" mantra that they use for comfort. As for me, I take no comfort in having my life put on hold, and frankly, find it quite depressing.

    DS

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    PSacramento
    Well, if there is NO truth then ANYTHING we say means NOTHING.

    Your statement could very well be one of the most profound you have made.

    That is how I see things. It is what we do that defines us and shapes the world around us. If we start from the premise that someone who is invisible and unaccountable is in charge and IS absolute truth, then we we will seek an absolute truth.

    On the other hand, truth could be a subjective thing: the set of rules or ambition that is accepted as appropriate or expedient for the civilisation we live in to reach its highest potential. Accepted standards of behaviour have aways been in flux because truth is often subjective and a reflection of the values we live by.

    If society as a whole lives by the same values, truth is established. If society holds different values, then each group will claim to have the truth. At the end of the day we can only be true to ourselves and hope that our truth is close enough to the truth that others live by for harmony to exist.

    May your gods go with you - unless you are content to be alone or compromise for the sake of peace.

    PS - Terry & On The Way Out

    I have read your last posts with care and agree with your well considered comments on the subject of truth.

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