Excellant research MrMonroe, very interesting and you haven't even begun to disect their theories on the 'other sheep'.
I wonder if Rutherford could now clear up the matter for them.
When did the "other sheep" class begin to form?
by Vanderhoven7 35 Replies latest jw friends
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Ding
Mr. Monroe,
Neither facts nor the context of scriptures have ever gotten in the way of the WTS.
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TD
Stapler,
I always thought that the majority of humanity after the death of Christ were thought to be part of the other sheep.
Actually, that's exactly opposite of what they teach. They don't say this very often in the literature, but when they do it's very clear. In JW theology, the heavenly hope was the only calling from Pentecost clear up into the time of the end:
For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. Many would be invited but only a precious few chosen. (Matthew 22:2, 14) (The Watchtower February 15, 1982 p. 30 emphasis mine)
Their being called to heavenly life was not because they were somehow better than all the servants of God who had died before Pentecost of 33 C.E. (Matt. 11:11) Rather, Jehovah now had begun to select those who would beassociate rulers with Jesus Christ. For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. Itwas an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving. (United In Worship of the Only True God p. 111 emphasis mine)
If that is not the case, it is implied that the majority will not get a resurrection at all, as there are many more than 144,000 people who lived in the period up to 1935.
Not at all. JW theology is very generous when it comes to the resurrection. With a few rare exceptions, everybody gets resurrected to at least life on earth. (The most notable exception are those who die as a direct result of God's judgment which includes all who die at Armageddon)
Mr Monroe:
The idea of "Other sheep" who live in the Christian era and are not also members of the "Great Crowd" is a huge problem in its own rite because it creates a third group of Christians who do not attain either of the two salvations that JW's believe Revelation 7 describes. This violates Christian theology at a very basic level and completely robs it of its meaning. Why be faithful if you're simply going to grow old and die and be resurrected to life on earth along with everybody else who didn't bother with being faithful?
Maybe I'm just being thick, but I honestly don't see any contradictions in those quotes though.
Faithful servants of Jehovah who have died—including those of the great crowd who die during the time of the end—will come forth to “a better resurrection.”(So the great crowd now includes those who died before Armageddon).
The "great crowd" is a small subset of the "other sheep" It is only those "other sheep" who survive the great tribulation. The Revelation book actually states that they are the "firstfruits" of the "other sheep" (p. 203) Those of the "great crowd" who who die prior to Armageddon lose their status as "prospective members" of the "great crowd" and are relagated to the much larger group of "other sheep" who are resurrected. JW literature doesn't deal with this often, but when it does, it is very clear:
"All those making up the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9 are "other sheep," but not all of the "other sheep" of John 10:16 constitute a part of the "great crowd." These terms are not wholly synonymous." (The Watchtower September 1 1966 pp. 543,544)
"Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.
Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.
In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well." (The Watchtower April 15, 1995 p. 31)
But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end." (So ... if you're alive during the time of the end -- which began in 1914 -- you're one of the great crowd, even if you die before Armageddon.)
That is a reference to a past belief and JW writers don't usually bother to explain that it has subtlely changed since then. In 1935 it was thought that the great tribulation had already started with the outbreak of the great war in 1914 but had been "cut short" (i.e. Paused for awhile) and that everyone was now in the eye of the tornado so to speak. It was thought that the "great crowd" had already come out of the great tribulation and therefore could be positively identified as such.
In 1970, that view was changed and the great tribulation was relocated to an event entirely in the future. Everyone who thought that they were members of the great crowd now found out that they were really only "prospective members" of the great crowd inasmuch as they had the "prospect" of living to and surviving Armageddon without ever having to die. That status would obviously be lost if they had the misfortune to die too soon.
But the happiness does not end there, for also promised is a resurrection to life right here on earth. Those resurrected will join an unlimited number who survive the end of the present wicked system. After viewing the small number who qualify for a heavenly resurrection, the apostle John was given a vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” What a happy time that will be when millions, possibly billions, come back to life here on earth!" (Uh, just a minute. So the great crowd actually includes the resurrected ones now?)
A little muddy, but the writer doesn't state that the resurrected become members of the great crowd; he says they "join" them (In life on earth) The reference to "millions, possibly billions [who] come back to life here on earth" directly on the heels of a reference to the great crowd is similarly unclear, but is also not a direct statement that they become members of that great crowd.
The great crowd, but definition are not resurrected.
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Leolaia
And it was the 1970 change that set the clock ticking on the 1935 "great crowd" generation. With the great tribulation in the future, the identification and gathering of the "great crowd" in 1935 could only have occurred if the tribulation comes before the 1935ers pass away. If it doesn't come before then, none of them were really members of the "great crowd" and the teaching that the gathering of the "great crowd" began in the 1930s is false.
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Vanderhoven7
I was interested in your response. I just questioned a Witness about a statement he made regarding other Christians besides the anointed existing between 33 AD and 1900 A.D.? His response was that there could well be millions of faithful Christians. I challenged that with the reference you provided
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. Many would be invited but only a precious few chosen. (Matthew 22:2, 14) (The Watchtower February 15, 1982 p. 30 emphasis mine)
He gave the following response.
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AnotherPaul Answers:
Humm, yes it was the only "calling" but that does not eliminate the vast majority from making up another group. Remember it is not a persons choice here, but God's as to who he "chooses"
(1 Thessalonians 1:4) 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, his choosing of YOU,
(2 Peter 1:10) 10 For this reason, brothers, all the more do YOUR utmost to make the calling and choosing of YOU sure for yourselves; for if YOU keep on doing these things YOU will by no means ever fail.
We only speak of the 144,000 anointed or chosen one, and then the other sheep who as a class were only identifiable in the last century.
However there have been millions if not billions who claim to be Christians. They were faithful to what they were taught that meant. How many, who knows. An example.
Sweden was pagan until about the 10th or 11th century. Then the kings made a decision to accept Christianity and many of their followers changed also. They learned Catholicism and obeyed the laws and precepts while expressing a belief and faith in Christ. Were they really Christian? if not what were they? However if the believed the Pope was Christ's vicar on earth, believed in burning a candle for their sins, indulgences, purgatory, etc were they Faithful Christians, Born Again and part of that class? Nope, many simply went along, putting the trust in their priests and did not look beyond that as where would they look?
Born Again, no, pagan, no, Christians, yes, to the extent they could be. That is why the Bible speaks of a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous TO EARTH. Note Rev 22 speaks of the healing of those Nations, something not necessary for those in the first resurrection.
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At this point I'm wondering whether or not, another non-anointed but approved group during this period is official WTS teachinhg.
Vander
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TD
Vander,
At this point I'm wondering whether or not, another non-anointed but approved group during this period is official WTS teachinhg.
"AnotherPaul" is confused and his scriptures are misapplied. Ask him to provide a reference from his church literature.
There are only two Christian destinies in JW theology.
"They also discerned that the Bible holds out two destinies --a heavenly one for the 144,000 anointed footstep follwers of Christ and a paradise earth for an unnumbered "great crowd" of "other sheep." (Revelation 7:9; 14:1; John 10:16) (The Watchtower May 15, 1995 p. 18)
In the Christian era, the Ransom applies to only these two groups
"Having suffered to the point of death, Jesus was able to provide the sacrifice needed to help others acquire a righteous standing. To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25. (Isaiah's Prophecy Volume II p. 211)
These are the two rewards for being a faithful Christian. (1) The Crown of heavenly life or (2) Surviving the Great Tribulation without ever having to die.
It's true that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the vast majority of humans will be brought back to life in the resurrection, but that is not a reward for being faithful. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected. It doesn't matter if they are Christian or not.
As I pointed out above, creating a third group of approved Christians would be a disaster because it would remove the distinction between faithfulness and unfaithfulness.
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witnessofjesus
All of the old WT articles are available online, just Google "Bible Students" and follow the links.
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moshe
Problems at the first WT convention of anointed vs the other sheep --
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Leolaia
It's true that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the vast majority of humans will be brought back to life in the resurrection, but that is not a reward for being faithful. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected. It doesn't matter if they are Christian or not.
Indeed. I think the Society is aware of this problem, and thus tries to mitigate it by suggesting (with no scriptural basis) that "perhaps" the faithful dead will the resurrected first before the rest of humanity, giving them more time to enjoy the Millennium before all hell breaks forth before Satan is released from the abyss.
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Gregor
In 1935, my paternal Grandparents built a little travel trailer and towed it from Oklahoma to Wash DC with their four sons (my father being the oldest). There they learned that they were of the 'Jonadab' class. I heard the story told my whole life. Grandma looked at Grandad at some point in the program and said, "Oh! We're Jonadabs !". This seemed to tickle the you know what out of them and they went back to Oklahoma with renewed enthusiasm.
Shortly before he died in 1969 my Grandfather told Dad, "If this 1975 deal doesn't work out I'm going to take another look at this whole thing."
