Terry-If the PREMISE is erroneous it DOESN'T MATTER what you extract from it and interpret.
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That is how I feel about the name 'Jehovah'.
Christian DOCTRINE comes from WHERE exactly??
by Terry 21 Replies latest jw friends
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designs
PS- prefer them to what..........cattle pins, hog farms, probably if the wind is in the right direction
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Band on the Run
I wonder why they did not archive the writings. One would believe Paul's writings might have quasi-relic status in the churches he founded. I'm still not clear in how his version encompassed the other writings.
A related thought is that the doctrine is so unclear. If this were truly scripture in capital letters, Jesus could have addressed Christology better. He seems coy to me on whether he had any recognition or messianic consciousness. I don't need the Bible to be perfect. For me, I accept that I am part of a tradition. When I was a Witness, if I did not like a verse, I felt damned. Now I am quite vocal about not liking some incidents in Jesus' ministries. One example is when he almost did not heal a woman b/c she was not Jewish. I accept that something deeper is running through the scriptures. Maybe just a collective grope towards God.
I can't believe that God, the big God, creator, would truly care about the minute detail stuff. He has bigger things to do, things that I cannot comprehend as a human. Jesus is sketchy and very radical in the gospels. Does he truly care about oral sex, beards, colored shirts, music (he might be a Beatles fan since I am). We project onto Jesus what we want to see. He is much more complex. Frankly, I don't know if I truly love the scriptural Jesus. I am smitten with a figment of my mind I call Jesus. He is perfect in every way, not perfect as in complete. My Jesus is a Royal Shakesperean actor, has blue eyes, loves everyone in a groovy way, reads classical literature. Most of all he has sparkly eyes that no one else on earth has. He must have gravitas, a dignified sense of presence. I love C.S. Lewis. Liam Neeson as Aslan is great. The film before he a teenage stuffed toy as Aslan. Not good.
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Terry
I wonder why they did not archive the writings. One would believe Paul's writings might have quasi-relic status in the churches he founded. I'm still not clear in how his version encompassed the other writings.
The amazing thing--and it is amazing....is that we treat the subject of Bible as a GIVEN!
It just IS what we are told is is and we don't QUESTION the premise one little bit.
I know I never did.
This makes us all extremely vulnerable.
Paul's letters were JUST LETTERS and that is all they were.
What they have become is something entirely blown out of all proportion.
Why would anybody regard his epistles as anything but a communication to be read and passed along?
Viewed from 2000 years later it seems a BIG DEAL. Back then--not at all
Religion is superstition and emotion and fear of death and imagination. None of these is rational.
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tec
Perhaps you misunderstand me. There is no christianity without bible. None. No denominations of any kind Calvinist or Unitarian Universalist. It all BEGINS from bible to.................whatever it is.
Of course there was Christianity before the bible. Who was Paul writing to otherwise? What was Luke talking about in Acts? Christians existed before the bible canon was put together.
It might be interesting to see what we would have of Christianity today if nothing had been written down and the 'bible' had not been put together. But we don't live in that world, and we can only speculate.
Paul's letters were JUST LETTERS and that is all they were.
On this we absolutely agree! But they can give us some insight into what was happening with him and those he spoke to at the time.
Tammy
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PSacramento
I wonder why they did not archive the writings. One would believe Paul's writings might have quasi-relic status in the churches he founded.
There is no indicaion of that at all, there is no indication that Paul viewed what he said as "sacred", much less what he wrote.
In the early churchs he helped set-up with Barnabas he wasn't even the main figure.
The fact that we have more of his letters just means that we have more of his letters.
Paul was a top notch philosopher and he also wrote a lot and dictated alot, the oldest records we have of Paul's letters come from about 200 Ad, though some of his letters are mentioned in the writings of the early church fathers late firts century and early 2nd.
The fact that they were kept and copied shows that he was quite popular and that his views were viewed as legit, at least by those that kept them and copied them.
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Terry
Of course there was Christianity before the bible. Who was Paul writing to otherwise?
Among the competing voices in neo-christianity the search for IDENTITY only became a central issue when JUDAISM was no longer a viable alternative.
Judaism was monotheistic, tradtional, old and entrenched. But, it had cultural IDENTITY transmitted into the DNA of those born into it.
Jesus, for any who followed him, was a JEW. He was a RABBI. He was, perhaps, even the Messiah long awaited.
But, for those who were disciples and apostles the idea of not being whatever a JEW was would be out of the question.
That is phase one.
By the time Saul/Paul came along the ragtag adherents to Jesus-is-Messiah cult had morphed, divided, split into variations on a theme.
All of it was tied up with the central imponderable: WHO EXACTLY WAS this Jesus?
Saul/Paul was but one voice among many.
What Paul had going for him was the way he TIED TOGETHER the JUDAISM of the past with the CHRIST centered Jesus stories of the 1st Century. In other words: CONTINUITY.
Remember, Paul wrote BEFORE the destruction of JUDAISM.
Paul came from a Paganized culture steeped in Platonic philosophy.
Paul's arguments are not traditional Jewish thought so much as neo-Platonic myth-making with Judaism as a backdrop.
Had 70 c.e. not brought the END of functional Judaism there would have been no impulse to RE-IDENTIFY themselves as CHRISTIAN rather than merely messianic JEWS.
The "noise" of counter argument Paul encountered was from staunch Jews whom he called "Judaizers."
Without a temple, priesthood, sacrificial ceremony, observance of festivals, etc. where else would Jews practise their age-old beliefs?
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sabastious
The amazing thing--and it is amazing....is that we treat the subject of Bible as a GIVEN!
It is truly dumbfounding, to me, that anyone on this planet would put implicit trust in the Bible.
-Sab
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moshe
Good points Terry, that need consideration from time to time. Thanks.
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myelaine
dear Terry...
you said: "Paul's arguments are not traditional Jewish thought so much as neo-Platonic myth-making with Judaism as a backdrop.
Had 70 c.e. not brought the END of functional Judaism there would have been no impulse to RE-IDENTIFY themselves as CHRISTIAN rather than merely messianic JEWS."...
well paul did understand that the other apostles were interested in keeping certain rules and regulations pertaining to the Jewish religious "identity"...and as the apostle to the gentiles he would be entrusted with the task of bringing the two groups...jewish and gentile into the one unified group. thus the church was "newly born" instead of the synagogue and new positions of authority were "newly born" within this structure instead of the inherited leadership of the jewish structure.(the practice of inherited authority that crept into the church through the papal system was in effect eliminated with the implementation of the unmarried and celebate priesthood).
ephesians 2:14-22
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Christ Our Cornerstone
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit....For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles-if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,(acts 9:15-20...from the Lord to Ananias) how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in a few words, by which, when you read, you may undestand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:...
love michelle