Hi Julie:
Absolutely not. I have no problems with realizing that I cannot fully comprehend what it was like to waste 20-30 yrs. in a cult but, I would like to fully point out the fact that Island Woman insinuated I am ignorant of the WT world and life in it. She basically alleged I haven't been there so I have no business commenting. This is the inferrence I take issue with. BTW, thanks for the concession there too.
I do not believe that you have no business commenting. I do think that your comments and views might take on a significantly different flavor had you been a JW for a long period of time. I believe that you would take my words differently. Until you and I got into this recent set of exchanges, I most often enjoyed your posts, even where I disagreed.
As do dishing it out and not being able to take it, lol, oh Amazing, I can see how it may seem that way but you are quite wrong. I went through and painstakingly explained my comments when called on them.
Far from it. Close examination of your comments reveals that they were a serious of alleging what you thought my "State-of-Mind" was. Yes, you quote my comments, but you do not clearly state just what it is in my wording that exhibits egotism, arrognace, 'stil-a-JW-edler-in-my-heart' etc. Otherwise, place a link to a single one of your comments where you demonstrated with evidence my character flaws. As I stated before, if you can do so, then I will admit my error and make apology.
Stood by them had no issue with being called on them.
You stand by your comments by repeating unsubstantiated comments. Standing by a position is fine. I do that. Others do that. But taking a stand in and of itself does not add substance to the position ... it just means we are standing by our position.
If you want to think me arrogant for forming opinions based on observation and experience, along with having the audacity to actually speak (write) those opinions, that is your thing.
Forming opinions is not arrogant. I have never stated such things. Making unfounded and unsubstantiated charater attacks mixed into an opinion is what I have a problem with ... a character attack, if taken to the extent that it has been on many posters, does come across as arrogant, egotistical, and judgmental.
As to overestimating myself in thinking you even wanted a *chance* much less a second chance to prove you are not all the negative things some came to believe, I have to admit all your talk of hoping to adjust your communications so that others wouldn't take offense lead me to deduce you cared about how others viewed your thoughts.
I do care, Julie. But, I cannot tailor every word and sentance to avoid offense. I cannot control other people's reactions. So, if some specific thing I said comes across as offensive, then tell me, as that becomes substantive evidence ... and I will rephrase or apologize or something to correct matters. I stand by that.
This further lead me to think you would like to be held in high regard for them, not something I think poorly of BTW so it's not meant as a criticism.
Good point. As most people, I like to be well thought of and liked. But, if I have a choice between people having little or no opinin of me, or disliking me because of the misrepresentations of others, then I would rather they have no opinion of me. I do not crave approval, but being a normal human, I enjoy it. And, I try to give approval to those who make posts that I feel are of excellent quality.
AND ... if I did not care about you, appreciate you, and think well of you, I would not be spending the time posting to you. I am more than willing to carry matters out to a workable solution.
I thought that after all this blew over that maybe things could be different, we could all continue growing, some of us with unintentenionally offensive modes of communication could continue working and growing.
We can all do that. My committment to that is not changed.
You made it very clear more than once (and have conceded--concession noted) that this was a goal of yours.
Yes. It is still my goal. But, there is this gut wrenching feeling I have that things I am supposed to have done to be offensive is not being specifically cited, quoted, and brought into the discussion. Please make a specific reference to something I said that was offenseive and why you feel it provides evidence of offense ... and let's go at it ... until either get it, or that you maybe see that you are reading into my words a 'state-of-mind' that I do not have.
Ginny Toskin used the "Flower" illustration to demonstrate how our reactions can dictate how we interpret events ... and this goes for words too. So, my issue with you is this: What about my words leads you to know my state-of-mind? Could it be that your interpretation of my words has more to do with your reactions than with what I am feeling? Julie, if I am all screwed up here ... then I stand by earlier statements to admit and progress. But, can we please get to a specific thing I said that would lead you to interpret where I have been those things I am accused?
I coupled this with your kind words the other day and how I viewed some of your religious growth/exploration posts and thought that maybe you should have a second chance in the mind of those with closed minds regarding you.
Julie, the reason I do not need a second chance is that no one that I have any level of relationship with emailed me to complain nor did I seek to obtain their forgiveness for some improper act on my part. It is not that I did not do something in error, but the situation has not presented itself thus far. As for all "Those" whom you speak, none demonstrated where I did anything wrong, none offerred a so-called 'second chance' and no second chance was sought.
Several people jumped in during the Amnesian saga and made nothing more or less than mere allegation lacking substance. I see no need to seek them out, grovel to get their approval, and bneg for their forgiveness when they have not stated what it is that I have done wrong ... other than making unbrella generalized allegations.
I could accuse any of them with some balnket statement and it would be the same thing ... unless I can demonstrate what it is that they have done worng ... why should they listen to me?
That's it, no high-self-opinion or anything, just a plain ol' person thinking perhaps another person wasn't what she had once thought him to be.....
Julie, again, having an opinion is anyone's right ... and I never stated that having an opinion means that you are arrogant. The issue is that you make claims that you have not backed up, and you keep doing it. To me this is arrogance and egotism. You keep telling me things like you are my mother ... my Mom died 35 years ago when I was 15 ... and I am doing just fine, thanks.
BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS WITH SUBSTANTIVE EVIDENCE OR QUIT! If you cannot do that, then you are the one with the problem.
Now let's not go dragging out the martyrdom/inflammatory comments like Holy War and such, no need for theatrics.
Where is the martyrdom and theatrics? Making a claim is not going to cut it ... demonstrate your claim. Holy War? That is a euphamism, an allegory to demonstrate what I perceive as a continuous bombardment from you against me. You talk about second chances, about how I am egotistical, and how I needed to grow like you are the expert that had to come in and shake me down. Theatrics? You flatter yourself ... anytime you wish, I will gladly go back and pull upo your posts and demonstrate my point. Thus far, you have failed to provide anything of substance about me.
We'll agree to disagree and perhaps one day we will find something to agree on.
Agree to disagree on what? You make false allegations, and you cannot substantiate them. That is not about agreeing to disagree as though mere opinion were involved ... it is about making false allegation that you cannot and will not back up because you cannot back them up.
No theatrics. No emotion. Just the facts mam.
