I don't see the GB acknowledging defeat. If anything they will crash and burn, go down with the ship. I don't see that happening anytime soon, despite any recent changes in attitude by the men in the high tower.
Something's been on my mind...
by Vidiot 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tia.dalma
I don't think this religion will self destroy. The people in charge, the governing body proved they can change their views, or their understanding, when they see something does not happen as they predicted. And if they survived after predicting that the end will come in 1975, they will survive anything, especialy that they are now very careful not to set any exact date or year.
I just hope they will loosen up a bit, not on morality but on stupid rules that have no biblical support.
About not having enough donations... they already reduced their costs by publishing the magazines only once a month. If they will change the hours for pioneers, there will be more who pioneer and they will not need to pay so many special pioneers. Many bethel familyes around the world have been reduced... so I think they know how to handle the money crisis, in case they really have one.
On the info war... are they really loosing it? I don't think so. It looks like they are trying to take advantage of the internet, there is the society's page, the jw.org page where anyone can download literature.
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Vidiot
NewChapter - "If WT didn't put on the front of neutrality, those scary right wingers would grow by millions overnight."
One of the main reasons why I suspect they've lasted over 100 years; similar to the Amish, they're (officially) pacifist; unlike the vast majority of other fundamentalist Christian religions. Most of these actively embrace militancy in one form or another; as a result, if and when they descend into extremist/antisocial behavior, law enforcement - correctly - perceives them as a threat to public safety, and cracks down on them - hard.
NewChapter - "I hope this was all coherent. Did you see Jesus Camp?"
Completely; you seem to get what I'm saying, and no. The trailer creeped me out too much.
Mr.Freeze - "If anything, they will crash and burn, go down with the ship."
That's what I'm trying to get at. They would never percieve it that way (or acknowledge it out loud), but that's irrelevent.
Mr.Freeze - "I don't see that happening anytime soon, despite any recent changes in attitude by the men in the high tower."
Maybe not, but these changes are coming at a rate that's almost dizzying compared to the relative snail's pace of the 20th Century's "New Light", which suggests to me that the WTS (being reactive rather than proactive) is trying all kinds of new tactics to survive, hoping that one or two will stick; they aren't "changes in attitude" - if anything, the attitude has entrenched itself, and the "changes" are an effect rather than a cause.
tia.dalma - "I don't think this religion will self destroy."
I'm not talking about self-destruction, per se; I'm talking about attempting to thin the pack (conciously or otherwise) to save the alphas - and thusly (in their view) - save the Organization. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, humans (as individuals or groups) are just as influenced by instinct as any other organism on the planet, and in a corner, will do what seems necessary to survive, even if those actions simply postpone extinction, rather than avert it.
In chess, Kings are expected to sacrifice Pawns to protect themselves. Have they not done that on a smaller scale already?
tia.dalma - "...if they survived after predicting that the end will come in 1975, they will survive anything, especialy that they are now very careful not to set any exact date or year."
Ah, but therien lies a substantial problem; recent studies pretty clearly show that apocalyptic millennialist groups absolutely have to date-set in order to foster a minimum sense of urgency among their memberships, and therefore maintain a minimum level of recruitment. With the high turnover rate of the WTS, fostering that urgency would by default be top priority (and we've clearly seen that). Except - after a century of repeated failed predictions, any further date-setting can't help but undermine whatever shred of credibility they have left among the remaining R&F capable of reason.
They need to date-set (among other things) to keep on truckin', but can't anymore.
tia.dalma - "About not having enough donations... they already reduced their costs by publishing the magazines only once a month. If they will change the hours for pioneers, there will be more who pioneer and they will not need to pay so many special pioneers. Many bethel families around the world have been reduced... so I think they know how to handle the money crisis, in case they really have one."
All stopgap measures in the long view; eventually corporations experiencing a prolonged reduction in income flow - despite the value of their assets - run out of cost-cutting contingencies; especially ones that build multi-million dollar complexes to sequester themselves away from the public eye. Their actions - more and more - are characteristic of a bunker mentality; they're battening down the hatches, even if they themselves don't realize it.
tia.dalma - "On the info war... are they really losing it? I don't think so. It looks like they are trying to take advantage of the internet, there is the society's page, the jw.org page where anyone can download literature."
They've been nostalgic for the 50s since the 50s, and as such, the World Wide Web is as alien to them - on a fundamental level - as the Space Age was to people who grew up idolizing the heroes of the Old West. All their reactions to the Information Age have been just that - reactions, and relatively slow responses, at that. Case in point; how many JWs knock on the door and direct people to the WT's website? Plus, the website has no open forum; these days, who frequents websites where they can't participate?
The WT.org website was simply another stopgap measure to give the R&F something with a modicum of modernism; the full transparency and inherent checks and balances of the Information Age, however, are an anthema to any authoritarian regime, even one that presents itself (or even perceives itself) as benign.
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donuthole
We have already seen this transpire once before, complete with secret bunkers. :-) When Rutheford took over power he totally reformed Russell's Bible Students. For all of their reverence and devotion to Pastor Russell, the Bible Students were still quite independent and democratic in practice. Rutherford removed power from the local congregations and gradually consolidated in the Watchtower Society where he was "the Boss". This was everywhere from small things like voting shares to local leadership to bigger things like the role the Society played. Together with the changing doctrines that eschewed Russell's writings, the loss among the membership was huge. However, the minority that remained was uniquely zealous for the Watchtower Society and for Rutherford, this group of loyalists gave rise to the 8-million member, religion known as Jehovah's Witnesses today.
It is interesting to look at the local leadership in the days of Rutherford. At first Rutherford installed a Society appointed service director in each congregation to support the advertising campaigns that were now being pushed by the Watchtower as a principal work of the organization. The story was spun, remaining to this day, that the local elders were not being supportive of service, believing that it was beneath them. Eventually Rutherford directed that the local bodies of elders were to be disbanded and that local leadership would fall to the Society-man. Some congregations dropped out but those that remained were headed by someone fiercely loyal to the Society, its aims and objectives.
Now I look at today; take this recent matter of college. Elders are waking up to the not-so-subtle way the Governing Body is saying that if they or their children attend a college that they most likely will be deleted as elders. In the recent TMS it was pointed out that something to look for in whether one was qualified was if they were obedient to the Faithful & Discreet Slave, or if they did their own thing, thinking they knew better. Now this is amazing, the Organization has been experiencing a huge drought in having enough brothers qualified to serve as elders and ministerial servents, and yet they are instituting a new policy that could very well cull the ranks of existing leadership. What Rutherford had accomplished directly, the current GB is accomplishing through heavy-handed policies; it's a weeding out. The road to get there is different but at the end of the day the result will be whatever reduced leadership the congregation has will be fiercely loyal to the GB.
I don't know enough about how Bethel operates but I can't help but to wonder what is going on there. It used to be that if a young man entered Bethel they were expected to view it as a lifetime committed, a career. Now the story is that they should expect to stay no more than four years. There have been numerous layoffs, with "career" bethelites pushed out into the field. The Society is streamlining the business end of things and operating at a reduced staff. They are getting out of the city into the country. Look down the line and picture that at the end of the day, those that remain at Bethel past the four-year trial, past the downsizing, will be the crème de la crème of the Bethel family. The company men and women who best fall in line and support the current Governing Body.
Now further look at the Governing Body itself. World wide leadership was basically in the hands of one individual from the days of Rutherford to Knorr. Then you get into 1970s where the Governing Body is expanded considerably, rises to prominence, and takes over leadership from the President. This is also the time period where there was a general laxing of the hardline stance and a spirit of liberation. From that time you have seen where hardliners have begun to take over silencing moderate voices, who have died out. The few replacements that have been made are of individuals that best exemplify the current spirit of the Governing Body. Look at the size of the Governing Body and how it declines from upwards of 18 members in the early 80s to the current 7 members, which is the lowest it has been since the 60's, where the Governing Body was simply the Society Board of Directors. Even at the top you have a streamlining, a reduction in size, with the remaining being the most feverently devoted to the Organization.
On all levels of leadership you are seeing the same thing, a reduction in overall size and a consolidation in power among those most loyal to the Organization and obedient to the Governing Body. The question is will we see the same thing in the rank and file? I already think we are seeing attrition caused by a variety of factors, such as old and death, disenchantment over the delay in prophetic expectations, pursuit of education & career, depression and lack of care locally. What we may start to see is a loss caused by the growing hardline attitudes of the leadership working its way down. If only the most-zealous, rule-following Society men remain you can picture what this will look like on the congregation level.
Any way - those are my long, rambling thoughts - apologies for missed words, misspellings, and general bad grammar.
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Hoffnung
Donuthole, I fully agree with you. History is repeating itself. That is one of the reasons they are discouraging the reading of old publications, and the rewriting of their own history with the new DVD. A new GB takes control, and they are targetting a more easy to control, more gullible flock. And they are suceeding, just as Rutherford did. Even as publisher numbers are stagnating in Europe, the number of pioneers and the average amount of hours per publisher has increased a lot. That means those who remain are conditioned "believers", willing to sacrifice a lot for the organization. The fence sitters will disappear, and remaining ones will be Yes-men. They could easily repeat 1975 over a few years.
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Vidiot
Thanx, donuthole, 'preciate the feedback.
So they're thinning the herd down to ultra-dominant alphas and ultra-subsurvient omegas, and shoring up the walls of the Tower - either above ground or otherwise.
Well, look at it this way; as ugly as the winnowing process is bound to get, this can't help but free millions now living who thought they'd never die.
I say, let 'em have their little WT Masada. History shows how that played out.
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A.Fenderson
Elders are waking up to the not-so-subtle way the Governing Body is saying that if they or their children attend a college that they most likely will be deleted as elders.
Interesting--is this something published for the R&F, or something only generally shared with Elders, and how explicit are they about it? Does it only reflect on the elder if their college-attending son/daughter is still dependent on their elder parent?
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Marvin Shilmer
Donuthole,
For sake of unaware readers, and to complete a thought you made about fall-out caused by Rutherfordonian policies and doctrine, in the mid-to-late 1920s there occurred a schism that resulted in an 80% decrease in the number of persons who associated themselves with Watchtower.[1-3]
Most folks are unaware of the serious extent of that particular schismatic event in Watchtower history.
Marvin Shilmer
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End notes and references:
1. In 1925 the total attendance for Watchtower’s most sacred event—the memorial of Jesus’ death—was 90,434.—(Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, 1959, pp. 312)
2. In 1928 the total attendance for Watchtower’s most sacred event—the memorial of Jesus’ death—was 17,380.—(Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1925, p. 263)
3. In Watchtower vernacular the decrease in memorial attendance of more than 80% represents the extent of persons who “ceased to walk with their former faithful associates.”— (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1959, p 73) Watchtower authorities also use the annual memorial attendance figure to express the total number “of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates”.—(Richard Bailey and Tomonoro Ariga, Artificial Cells, Blood Substitutes, and Immobilization Biotechnology, 1998, Vol. 26 Numbers 5 and 6, p. 573. Authors Bailey and Tomonori are Jehovah’s Witnesses working for the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in its Hospital Information Services department.)
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MeanMrMustard
This is actually a really good thread. Marking for reference...
Thanks!
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No Apologies
Marvin, there is something not quite right with your notes, how would the Sept. 1, 1925 Watchtower have the Memorial attendance for 1928?
No Apologies