Jesus vs Satan

by scary21 23 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Not sure what you mean Shelby, are you saying that we will find Jesus being created in Genesis, John and Colossians?

    Not created, no, dear one (again, peace to you!). Our Lord was not created; he was born, as you acknowledge.

    John makes it clear that Jesus was with God from the beginning, which means he existed BEFORE God created "the beginning".

    Yes, he did exist. And John makes it clear that our Lord was with the Father "in" the beginning (not "from" the beginning, as our Lord existed even BEFORE that start of the creation, which is not what "in the beginning" means. The term "from the beginning" is inaccurate and misleading. The term "in the beginning" means... "in the Ark"... which is the womb of the Woman, Jerusalem Above. (Revelation 12:1)

    John makes it clear that ALL was made Through Jesus.

    All "creation" (i.e., all that was created), yes. It all came into existence through that One, yes.

    Colossians states that Christ was firstborn of all creation

    Yes. The first BORN. Which means he was conceived... and then brought forth, as with birth pangs. Unlike the creation, which was not born...

    ( not that he was created, he was "born" before creation)

    Yes! He was born... before creation. Well, before creation, actually. So, again, to say that he was with God "from the beginning" is misleading.

    and that ALL things in heaven and Earth were created by/in Him.

    Yes. All things were created by means of/in him - he was the source/substance... came out of him - into existence... and through him (the Door) came into the physical realm. Except Death, of course (which existed already and entered into the physical world through Adam).

    As for Genesis, we see that "spirit" of God working at the very beginning of the act of creation

    Yes, the Father was USING that Spirit to create; however, that Spirit, the Son was PRODUCED (i.e., born), BEFORE the creation:

    “JaHVeH himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deepsI was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker*, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

    *Having been taught so as to BE a "master", thus indicating a previous apprenticeship under the Father. On what did he learn? Creating that which exists in the spirit realm, including angels and principalities, etc. (Job 38)

    and that spirit is Christ and that Christ was active even before creation started.

    Yes. Our Lord existed... and was active... before the creation, yes. However, you stated that he was always with the Father, which is not accurate - he was with the Father before the creation, yes, but there was a time... before he was brought forth... from the womb [Ark] of the Woman... when the Father was without him, per se. True, the seed which was to become him existed IN the Father... as seed is in human fathers... but there is no child (hence, no birth), until that seed meets with a woman's seed... resulting in a conception. Thus, "he" was not always with the Father, unless you are speaking of the part that would become him, once he was conceived. But if so, you are leaving out the part that is the seed of the Woman. It took the two to make the One.

    Which is why I stated "inaccurate", versus incorrect. It was when the Father's holy spirit... or lifeforce... conceived a child with the Woman, Jerusalem Above, that our Lord was produced. From there, he was "harvested" or born... from that womb/Ark. Once THAT occurred... everything else was brought into existence, starting in the spirit realm... or Ark.

    I hope this helps!

    Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    AH, yes, sorry, I should have been more clearer.

    I wasn't going into that much detail, my bad.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    No, the error is mine, dear one (again, peace to you!). I mistook your post to indicate our Lord as having no beginning, like the Father, which I can see now you didn't mean. Unfortunately, after all of the WTBTS lies/BS I've become such a stickler for truth that I someone go beyond what's necessary. I realized that after my last response and so apologize (although I know you've already FORgiven me... as you always do - .)

    Sorry, P, truly... and, again, peace to you!

    Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    but there was a time... before he was brought forth... from the womb [Ark] of the Woman... when the Father was without him, per se.
    I mistook your post to indicate our Lord as having no beginning, like the Father, which I can see now you didn't mean.

    Rather than accept your interpretation, rather, I accept what the Christian Church affirms.

    There was never a Father without the Son or the Holy Spirit.

    All are God, all exist in eternity.

    God has not changed, and will never change. God has always been what God is, and will always be what God is.

    I the Lord do not change.

    Since we are quoting Hebrews here:

    In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
    But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

    And,

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Additionally,

    Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

    "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

    Before me there was no God formed nor is there after me.

    Before the mountains were born

    or you brought forth the earth and the world,

    from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

    The Son was in existence when there was no time, when there was such no such thing as "before" or "after."

    Who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

    The coming of Jesus in the flesh did occur in time, our time.

    BTS

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    You know, dear BTS (peace to you!)... I totally "get" that some of what is included in the Bible could lead a person to conclude that the Father and Son are one and the same. However, it seems to ME that, regardless of whether this is true or not... LISTENING to... and DOING... what the SON said would be the thing. For example, HE is recorded to have said that the Father is greater than he is. He is also recorded to have given us a "model" prayer, where we are to state something along the lines of the name of the FATHER being held holy (hallowed/sanctified)... and asking Him to give us, keep us, etc.

    Now, true, OTHERS are recorded to indicate that perhaps the Son is the same and so we should worship the Son, as well. However, even if they are equal... or one...or whathaveyou (and I am certainly not stating that they are, for I have learned... heard... and seen... different)... the SON is recorded to have said:

    ‘It is JaHVeH your God [or, as some versions render it, "the LORD, your GOD"] you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [or "Him alone you must serve].’”

    He himself is even recorded praying TO the Father. In this light, it seems to me that even if the Father and Son were/are equal... DOING what the Son SAYS... and DOES/DID... is the key. And apparently, he said it is God... ALONE... that we are to worship. And the angel who presented the Revelation to John apparently said the same thing. Or at least, John... or someone... recorded him as doing so.

    Now, okay, I get it: you and others might think he was speaking of himself, as well. I say to you, however, that my Lord is not coy. He really does say what he means... and means what he says. Even if it is an illustration; the illustration itself stands for something. If, then, we are to also worship HIM... he truly would have said so... and it would have been recorded by someone... because he... and they... would know that our lives depended on it. But he did not say such a thing; rather, he directed all such worship away from himself... and to the Father.

    But I do not disagree that worshiping the Son is good. Indeed, I have learned that OBEYING the Son IS a form of worshipping him.

    And so I ask you, if that One says, "Hey, folks, pray to the Father and not to me," wouldn't it be wise... at least, for those who claim to follow the Son... to do "just so"? Isn't the one who is faithful in what is least... also counted faithful in much?

    Folks often ponder how it is I hear. It really is very simple, dear one: I LISTEN. To what HE says. Regardless of what anyone else says, said... wrote... or has been attributed with writing.

    Is God the Father the same as God the Son? Well, some will think it matters and some will think it doesn't. The truth, however, is that the ONLY thing that matters... is that one LISTENS TO... and OBEYS... THE SON... and what HE says. Whether in writing... or through speech. Neither of which take theology or what "the Christian Church" to know... because both only require faith.

    We are to kiss the Son, yes, dear one... but it's lest GOD become angry. Not lest the Son become so.

    Don't get me wrong: I am not trying to further perpetuate the WTBTS' false path of removing the Son from his glorious position. Not at all! I fully recognize him as my Lord... my King... my Savior... my Redeemer... and more. HE is the reason I can and will live... to time indefinite. But I have to say that one cannot say of him, "Lord, Lord!"... and not do the things he SAYS. There is a REASON he is our Teacher and Leader, dear one.

    So, you can listen to man... or you can listen to him. I truly hope you choose the latter.

    Again, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, who IS Lord and King,

    SA

  • tec
    tec

    PSac, Burns, Aguest (peace to you all)

    I find it funny how sometimes something so simple allows something complex to become clear, at least for me. Christ is the "firstborn" over all creation... meaning a beginning.

    Though it flatters me to no end to be mistaken for Tammy, I have to speak up and say I am not she.

    I thought it was cute, and so I let it stand. @Syl :)

    Tammy

  • GOrwell
    GOrwell

    @Aguest. You said :

    "And so I ask you, if that One says, "Hey, folks, pray to the Father and not to me," wouldn't it be wise... at least, for those who claim to follow the Son... to do "just so"? Isn't the one who is faithful in what is least... also counted faithful in much?"

    I am curious where Jesus says "pray to the Father and not to me"? (I'm thinking of John 14:14 here),

    John 14:14 New International Version(©1984)
    You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I find it funny how sometimes something so simple allows something complex to become clear, at least for me. Christ is the "firstborn" over all creation... meaning a beginning.

    Sure, if you wanna keep it simple, but where's the fun in that ?

    LOL !

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    The JW's believe Jesus was 'created' first then "Satan" (not his name), after as he was just an angel then became "Satan" because he was a rather naughty boy with a snake. (Don't bother trying to find it in the Bible as JW's have their own doctored version of the Bible. (In any case they're virtually lead to believe Watchtower is inspired and the Bible isn't!)

    To be honest. What JW's believe today could change at the drop of a hat under 'new light'. Then if you continue to believe the old opinion you could be DF for apostacy.

    It's just a looney tune CULT so who cares what they believe!!

  • Ding
    Ding

    To answer the original question of this thread, the Watchtower Society teaches that in his pre-human existence, Christ was Michael the archangel, the first creation of Jehovah God, through whom everything else was created. See the Reasoning book, pages 199 and 218.

    They're wrong about that, but it's what they teach.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit