I was reading brotherdan's thread about DF individuals having to sit at the back or/and leave for song and prayer. I know this practice varies from hall to hall or is regional but I was wondering what right do they have to do this if KH is a public place? It's a charitable organization, public place open to all I thought. If it's open to all and the attendee doesn't disturb anyone how can they tell someone to leave for song and prayer? Isn't that a discriminatory or prejudicial action? Could they kick out a known apostate from just walking into the KH? Never thought of this before, but does anyone know laws regarding religious buildings which are supposedly open to the public like KH supposedly are? If a stranger off the street can go in and be greeted and can sit anywhere through the entire 2 hours of boredom why can't a df person or an apostate? As long as the individual doesn't create a disturbance what right do they have? If someone walked in with a T-shirt that said "1914 is a no event" could they kick that one out for wearing something they assume is anti-wts? They don't have a dress code per se for worldlies. Just curious what rights do they have when it comes to non-jws entering kh and could they get sued for practices that are discriminatory in nature - I'm only talking about attendees who don't create any sort of disturbance within the "place of worship."
KH and DF attendance question
by diamondiiz 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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teel
I don't know the laws (especially since it tends to vary by country), but I think generally an organization can deny entry to anyone without further explanation. After all even if it's an open place, it's still their building, and they have the right to set any kind of law they want as long as it doesn't infringe on human rights/local laws, even set a dress code to enter their building, etc. For example mosques are also an open place of worship, yet you are required a dress code to enter, like no open shoulders for women.
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NewChapter
I don't think they were prohibiting her from actually being in the building in a legal sense. The problem is, these elders that are telling her these false rules are also the elders that will be deciding her fate when she requests reinstatement.
First, what these elders have done is not the norm. They are out of line, and if she took it further, they would probably be corrected. I'm not saying I agree with the process even when it is done according to their rules, I'm just saying that these particular elders have gone rogue. I don't think they did anything to force her to leave, but if she doesn't, they may use that as proof that she is not repentant and not respectful of the DF arrangement and not submissive to elder direction.
In a sense, if you recognize their authority, it's a lot of power. Like any postion with some power, if those administering it go bad, people get hurt. On the other hand, this may have served to open her eyes, and maybe now she can truly be free. Because even if you decide to leave the org, if your heart and mind still believe, you just aren't free. I know. I was inactive once, but miserable because I believed. Now, I no longer believe, and truly feel free.
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Awen
I see the Kingdom Hall like a private home. People are welcome to come over, you can be let in if you aren't disruptive and stay a while. There may be certain rules of conduct which are subject to change at any time without prior notice. It simply depends upon the persons involved.
If the police were called to have you removed, the elders could make up anything they liked and you'd be hard pressed to prove they had done anything wrong. As far as I know the rules for attending aren't written down anywhere for the public to see. It's their building and they can run it the way they see fit. The public authorities would most likely say that if you don't like the JW rules then stay away from them. But to willfully return would show a predisposition for disrupting the JW meetings. They could also serve a restraining order on you.
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wobble
In my old Congo. the DF'd ones were not made to sit at the back, in fact as the back seats were the favourites, and out of consideration most DF'd ones would turn up after the meeting had started,(again that was their choice, not a ruling) the back seats would all be taken.
As attendant for nearly every meeting, I used to encourage their families to save seats for them, and I would kindly show them where their seat was.
I was never told this was not to be done, and would have resigned straight away if I had been.
I bet this is still the procedure even though I have been gone for three years, I do hope so, the poor DF'd person suffers enough.
Our Congo. was unusual though, in this I guess, and certainly in many other respects.
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reds
I was reinstated I think in 2003. I never sat in the back of the kingdom hall. We were told a couple years later to leave the last two rows for the elderly & infirmed so that it would be easier for them to get in and out should they need to use the restroom or stretch their legs etc. I thought this was a nice gesture. I myself am still fadeing.
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DesirousOfChange
Hopefully WTS does indeed monitor this site and will know that they need to discuss this subject with elders at upcoming Circuit Assm. Since they discourage any criticism, how else can they know when there is an internal issue that needs attention?
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diamondiiz
Dress rules don't really apply in KH and they couldn't prove you need to wear a suit in court of law since many new studies come in with jeans and a sweater, t-shirt or a shirt so how could they win that? Double standard. Example given with a mosque and a dress code is good but that doesn't apply to JWs as shown above. I seen people off the street come in in ripped jeans and a t-shirt and they had no problem sitting in the KH and were very much welcomed by JWs after the meeting.
As for a building being private? Well, it sort of is but it's also a public building and the meetings are open to the public which I think their outside schedule also states they meetings are open to public or something to that effect - it's been ages since I looked at the outside schedule. They have public invitations and so forth, so by that I don't see how they could kick someone out if they just didn't like them to be there.
I don't know the laws that's why I was just wondering since if they kick someone out for no reason while the building is "open to the public" and "all are welcome" it's a discriminatory action when done without a reason other than they just don't like a person. That's like a Jew saying a Muslim or Christian cannot enter their synagogue just because. To a much lesser degree when a DF person is pushed outside or told to move out of a certain area because elders just like to push the person around sounds also somewhat discriminatory in nature. I agree, the only power they have is the power you give them but let's say you don't and for a DF it's obvious they couldn't get reinstated but that part would fall under religious rules while where a person sits (as long as it's in general public sitting area) or who attends (while not disrupting) don't really apply IMO.
With an apostate for example. If they allow a bum off a street in while at the same time they don't allow an apostate because JWs don't like the apostate's belief system, isn't that discriminatory?
according to wikipedia:
Within sociology, 'discrimination' is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based solely on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups.
The United Nations stance on discrimination includes a statement that: "Discriminatory behaviors take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection."[
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St George of England
*** w52 3/1 pp. 141-142 Propriety of Disfellowshiping ***
RESTRICTION OF PRIVILEGES
13 Now some persons think they can stay in the truth, but they do not want to work according to God’s standards. So they keep going out in the field service, they go from door to door, they distribute books, they have Bible studies, still they are disfellowshiped from the congregation. Even after they are disfellowshiped, sometimes they put in many more hours than they did when they were with the congregation. What is the congregation going to do now with such an individual? We must keep in mind that this person has been disfellowshiped and is not a member of our company. We want to avoid him, we want nothing to do with him.
14 Now meetings that are open to the public he can attend as long as he behaves himself and acts orderly. If that individual comes into a public meeting, say, a public lecture in a public auditorium, or Kingdom Hall, or city park, or a Watchtower study or a service meeting, it is public, the doors are open, and he may be admitted. If he comes into that meeting and sits down, as long as he is orderly, minds his business, we have nothing to say to him. Those who are acquainted with the situation in the congregation should never say “Hello” or “Good-by” to him. He is not welcome in our midst, we avoid him. If this one should be sitting in the Watchtower study and raise his hand, the chairman should never recognize him or allow him to make a comment. He is not one of us. He is not a recognized member in God’s congregation. Those who are informed and know the individual certainly should avoid him, have nothing to say to him. He has no privileges of service in the congregation whatsoever. He could go over to the book counter and get literature at the regular public rates, but the company should never give him books or magazines at company rates, because he is not one of us. What we would do for the public, for those in the Devil’s organization, we may do for that one.
15 If this one goes out in the field service, maybe getting the books at the counter at the regular rates instead of company rates or pioneer rates, and goes out from door to door, we cannot stop him. He has just as much right to go from house to house as anyone else if he wants to, but this congregation will not give him any territory. They will not accept his reports. When they come in he will not be one of those listed as a publisher in this company. He might put his report in the report box, but we tear it up and we throw it away. He is not one of us. He is a representative of the Devil’s organization trying to corrupt, disturb. He is not clean, and until that individual repents and changes his course of action he can never come back and be one of the Lord’s people.
16 So then the company is careful about him. It removes his card from the file of recognized Kingdom publishers. He is never given any of the monthly printed Informant. He may retain his Counsel booklet if he wishes, because this, if he reads it, might show him the course of action he should take. If he reads The Watchtower, if he reads the books of the Society, they show him the course that he should take; but as long as he does not take that course he is not welcome in the congregation.
17 If this individual becomes noisy or obstreperous he should be kept out of the Kingdom Hall and public meetings. That is the company’s perfect right. Otherwise, it may be that, if he comes into the public meetings and quietly hears the admonition and the counsel given in the studies, he will wake up, become ashamed, and repent.
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This is very old (1952) and some of it now irrelevant, but I have never seen anything in print that says a disfellowshipped person has to sit anywhere special in the KH. Certainly in our KH disfellowshipped ones sit where they wish, usually with friends and/or family.
There was a comment recently (KM possibly) about disfellowshipped ones travelling in the car with family members to the meetings and as I recall this was not a problem either.
George
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diamondiiz
From w52 stated above there is no reason why anyone would be kept out of KH unless he was "becomes noisy or obstreperous." Also nothing is mentioned where one is to sit or nothing is said one needs to come in or leave at a certain time as those are local or congregational discriminatory rules. Dubs can shun you (BS religious right) but as I think you have the right to attend and sit wherever you want without them pushing you around. Once they start pushing you around they are harassing you or discriminating you which may become a court case if one decides to sue - I think. I remember when apostates approached me in while I was a dub at a convention and they were dressed in suits and all that, the security told them to sit down and not disturb the audience or they will be kicked out - we were debating trinity which I never had a problem talking to anyone approaching me. Which makes me think that dubs couldn't do too much if a known apostate attended a KH without making a disturbance and if they did you may have a legit case against them??????