by Mr. Falcon 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
What longhairedgal said plus one.
My experience (and my reaction to it) was identical. I was told there was no clergy, eventually I figured out that was one more thing they lied about. One of these days the competing standards are going to burn them (or an elder or CO) big time.
One time some JWs were bragging about how, unlike the evil churches of Christendom, the WTS doesn't have a paid clergy.
I asked them to explain to me 1 Corinthians 9:13-14: "Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."
They said, "But Paul didn't accept money for it."
I said, "True, but that was his choice. The general rule that he said Christ commanded was that those who preach the good news should receive their living from doing so. Doesn't that mean that they should be offered a living wage and have every right to accept it?"
The discussion ended there with a strained silence.
Lost Generation - Exactly, they hold the cards and act almost like a parole officer, reporting back to "the branch" any recommendations that you be DF'd, reproved, removed, etc. Their lack of counselor-training is one of my biggest complaints. When confronted they will almost always admit that they are not "qualified mental health experts" but in reality, they never miss an oppurtunity to psychoanalyze you, render a judgement and then proscribe the same one-size-fits all "cure" that you mentioned, that being meetings/service/prayer.
Misery - ".. but there is a faithful and discreet slave providing food at the proper time." That, my friends, is a textbook example of sarcasm.
JeffT - I sent you a message, help me out if you can. Thanks.
Lost Generation - Exactly, they hold the cards and act almost like a parole officer, reporting back to "the branch" any recommendations that you be DF'd, reproved, removed, etc. Their lack of counselor-training is one of my biggest complaints. When confronted they will almost always admit that they are not "qualified mental health experts" but in reality, they never miss an oppurtunity to psychoanalyze you, render a judgement and then proscribe the same one-size-fits all "cure" that you mentioned, that being meetings/service/prayer.
Very interesting topic. I've been thinking about this myself lately. If God "gave some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers" (I give you the gist) why would it be wrong to have someone whose sole job was to shepherd a particular congregation? And wouldn't it be great if said person was trained to deal with mental health issues and other problems, rather than having someone without a clue judging and disciplining?
And you can't say there isn't a paid clergy when COs and DOs do no secular work and are supported by the congregations. What on earth is the difference between that and the pastor of some church?
But the question remains: is it really such a terrible thing to have a clergy class?
I don't thinks so. In my experience, here is how the typical elder body is made up:
25% are power hungry men
25% really are trying to be shepherds, really want to help the flock, and are good guys overall.
50% end up there just because they follow the directions of the cult. I mean they do their assignments, put in enough service time, and keep their nose clean. By default they are promoted to MS, and then after a while elder just because the WT just needs them to fill the needs of the congo.
So what do you end up with? A BOE with only 25% who want to be there, with the other quarter who are there for their own egos. These groups butt heads most of the time, with the power hungry asserting their way the majority of the time.
The other silent half is just along for the ride, pressured into it by either the org or their overzealous elderette wives who tie their status to their elder husband.
Compare that to "Christendom" I'd wager most of the pastors and priests out there aren't making a killer living at what they do. Sure there are the exceptions and the WT accuses them of fleecing the flock. But the great majority are there because they choose to be. They do it out of a love for God and a love of their fellow man. Yes they make a living at it, but they aren't pushed into it against their will and they generally aren't doing it because they get off on wielding power over the laity.
The issue isn't so much about what you call a clergy, but whether a man has been called to the ministry. In today's world, we see members of the clergy with outer vestments with some (like the Catholics) sporting garish mitres and robes that clearly have pagan origins. Such vestments were foreign to the early church, which tended towards a lay clergy. But over the Internet, anyone who wants to start a church can buy "elegant clergy vestments" and "fine clergy cassocks," get a ministerial certificate (suitable for framing) and they're in business...literally.
The outer vestments were devised around the fourth century and the liturgical colors gained significance in the ninth century. As one scholar notes: "The liturgical colors are first given significance in the ninth century. The Roman clerics say, the devout Catholics say, and the great authorities on this concede that they have absolutely no antique or sacred Christian background. In themselves, the colors are not ancient, and they are not at all sacred in the church." Aaron was given special priesthood garments under Moses and by revelation that he might minister as a priest. But no such vestments were adopted by the first century church. Neither were the haircuts, mandatory beards, etc.
But how do the Witnesses claim the authority to baptize, lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit, administer to the sick and ordain others? How does a person acquire such authority? And can it be gained through the Internet?
The interesting thing about the clergy is that what gives the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses such authority? If you can't get it through the Internet, where can you get it? Does the governing body have more authority than those who will send you a certificate of ordination?
Who is supposed to administer such rights and privileges? I don't see anything in the Bible giving anyone in the modern day such authority. Yet shouldn't God administer it in some way? But if so, how? Modern clergy is simply a system of priestcraft by which men mutually recognize each other's authority. Within 30 days I can become a duly recognized member of a clergy that's every bit as legitimate as anyone else's. I can post my ministerial certificate, get a special parking permit, a collar of my choosing and some pretty fancy robes for Sunday. I will be able to baptize (sprinkle or dunk), perform marriages, collect contributions (plates available at special rates), ordain others and preach, teach, expound, exhort and did I say collect contributions? I can also cast out demons and get tax cuts.
That, my friends, is the problem with a clergy. I don't need an existing church to sponsor me; I can start a new one. I can teach right from the Bible and interpret scriptures in any way I see fit, and I can say I was guided the entire time by the Holy Spirit. But I don't have to wear vestments. I can start a Bible study and work through my own publishing company. And I can find things in the Bible and interpret them to refer to me. And how will I be any different from the folks at Bethel?
Cold Steel, you may be able to print out a certificate, but that doesn't make you a "prince".
You make good points. Why do human organizations keep trying to play the role of mediator to God? Isn't that the whole reason why Jesus died?
