Any explanation from WT about the missing tribe in Rev. chap. 7?

by heyfea 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  heyfea

  Hello all,

  I don't think I ever heard a reference from the WT about the fact that in chapter 7 of Revelation, one of the tribes of Israel, Dan, is missing and replaced with the tribe of Manasseh, who's Joseph's son (Jacob adopted Joseph's son as his own).

  Since the WT insists that the 144,000 "jews" are NOT literal jews, then why Jesus didn't simply mention all the ORIGINAL tribe names in Revelation? It really wouldn't have made a difference, right?

  Ah, but what if these 144,000 jews, are REALLY jews? Oh, then you bet it DOES matter which tribe gets Jesus's approval. Have anyone ever seen any information from the WT regarding this?
• 

  baltar447

  I think they use these ersatz tribes as proof that the number is figurative.
• 

  Caminante

  In the articles on tribes in Insight on the Scriptures (volume 2, page 1125) there is the following explanation:

  Tribes of Israel. The tribal arrangement in Israel was based on descent from the 12 sons of Jacob. (Ge 29:32–30:24; 35:16-18) These “twelve family heads [Gr., do′de?ka pa?tri?ar′khas]” produced “the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Ge 49:1-28; Ac 7:8) However, Jacob blessed Joseph’s two sons, Manasseh the older and Ephraim the younger, and said: “Ephraim and Manasseh will become mine like [his actual sons] Reuben and Simeon.” (Ge 48:5, 13-20) When the various tribes received their land inheritance in the Promised Land (Jos 13-19), there was no “tribe” of Joseph. Instead, “the sons of Joseph,” Manasseh and Ephraim, were counted as distinct tribes in Israel. (See BOUNDARY ; MAP , Vol. 1, p. 744.) As Jehovah had arranged, though, this did not increase the tribes of Israel receiving an inheritance to 13, because the Levites got no land inheritance. Jehovah had chosen “the tribe of Levi” (Nu 1:49) in place of the firstborn of the other tribes to minister at the sanctuary. (Ex 13:1, 2; Nu 3:6-13, 41; De 10:8, 9; 18:1; see LEVITES .) Consequently, there were 12 non-Levite tribes in Israel.—Jos 3:12, 13; Jg 19:29; 1Ki 11:30-32; Ac 26:7.

  Towards the end of that page, and continued on the next, we find a section that talks about the tribes of the so-called "spiritual Israel":

  Tribes of Spiritual Israel. Revelation 7:4-8 divides the 144,000 members of spiritual Israel into 12 ‘tribes’ of 12,000 each. (See ISRAEL OF GOD .) The list differs slightly from the lists of Jacob’s sons (including Levi) who were the tribal heads of natural Israel. (Ge 49:28) The following may be the reason for the difference:
  Jacob’s firstborn son Reuben lost his right as firstborn by his misconduct. (Ge 49:3, 4; 1Ch 5:1, 2) Joseph (the firstborn son of Jacob through his second, but favorite, wife Rachel) gained the privileges of firstborn son, including the right to have two parts, or portions, in Israel. (Ge 48:21, 22) In the Revelation list “Joseph” evidently stands for Ephraim. And Manasseh represents Joseph’s second portion in spiritual Israel. The tribe of Levi is listed; to make room for Levi without increasing the number of tribes, no tribe of Dan is included in Revelation 7:4-8, but apparently not because of any unsuitability on Dan’s part. The inclusion of Levi would also serve to show that there is no special priestly tribe in spiritual Israel, the entire spiritual nation being “a royal priesthood.”—1Pe 2:9.

  I think this information explains perfectly the position held by the Watchtower Society.
• 

  Sapphy

  Of course the simplest explanation is that whoever wrote Revelation forgot Dan & just stopped listing tribes when they got to 12.
• 

  snowbird

  An even simpler answer: "I/We don't know."

  Syl
• 

  heyfea

  "The following may be the reason for the difference: Jacob’s firstborn son Reuben lost his right as firstborn by his misconduct. (Ge 49:3, 4; 1Ch 5:1, 2) Joseph (the firstborn son of Jacob through his second, but favorite, wife Rachel) gained the privileges of firstborn son, including the right to have two parts, or portions, in Israel. (Ge 48:21, 22)......The inclusion of Levi would also serve to show that there is no special priestly tribe in spiritual Israel, the entire spiritual nation being “a royal priesthood.”—1Pe 2:9."

  Thank you Caminante.

  This WT reasoning would seem to point even more to the fact that these 144,000 are literal jews. If not, then Jesus is making a mockery of Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim. In fact Jesus is making a mockery of every tribe of Israel.
• 

  heyfea

  One thing that pops into my mind from time to time is that, we've been waiting for almost two thousand years for Jesus return. Why? Could it be that the gathering of the 144,000 jews is not complete? Think of this: How many jews accept Jesus as the Messiah every day? How long will it take to complete 12,000 of each tribe mentioned in Revelation 7? Only God knows the day and the hour of Jesus return because He also knows which jewish person belongs to which tribe, and how many more are needed from each tribe. Now, does it seem more logical all this waiting? It does to me.
• 

  AGuest

  no tribe of Dan is included in Revelation 7:4-8, but apparently not because of any unsuitability on Dan’s part.

  May you all have peace! Dan's share is replaced by the "nations" (great crowd). When Israel was to retake Canaan, the 12 tribes were to drive out the land's inhabitants. Although 11 of the tribes did take the land back (but allowed the inhabitants to remain), Dan did not. Instead, Dan was run off its land by the inhabitants (the Amorites) and forced into the mountains. Because Dan did not at least attempt to retake the land, but let the inhabitants run them off... Dan lost its share (on "Mount Zion"), which share was reapportioned to Joseph, thus giving Joseph his rightful "double" portion as the firstborn of Rachel (Jacob's "true" wife).

  The 144,000 is a literal number from among the sons of Israel. This is the number of those saved over from Abraham's seed in order to "seal" the promise made to Abraham. These, along with a great crowd out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people... including the REST of Israel... make up the "holy nation" of kings and priests, bought with the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 5:9, 10)... who rule with Christ for a limited period of 1,000 years (HIS rulership, however, is NOT limited to 1,000 years but is indefinitely lasting. It is only their CO-rule period that lasts for 1,000 years... and consists of "separating [the sheep] from [the goats]").

  I hope this helps and, again, wish you all peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Pahpa

  The Watchtower is arbitrary when it comes to explaining the symbols of

  Revelation. It insists that it is a lilteral number of 144,000. On the other

  hand, it teaches that the "tribes" are spiritual Israelites. I have to agree

  with heyfea that we simply do not know. Since the leaders of the

  Watchtower want authority over others much the same way the

  scribes and Pharisees did in Jesus' time, they give the impression

  that they know more than the average reader of the Bible. They don't!

  And what difference does it really make? Each person has the ability

  to read the Bible and come to a personal conclusion. The danger is

  when we try to force our personal views upon others as "Truth."
• 

  AGuest

  Each person has the ability to read the Bible

  While that is quite true, dear Pahpa (peace to you!), it's a bit of a[n unsubstantiateable) stretch to conclude that the number is not literal:

  "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language."

  Since the second group cannot be numbered, why would the first be figurative or symbolic? Why HEAR a literal number... if it ISN'T a literal number... which IS the case as to the second group?

  The number DOES refer to "spiritual" Israel, however. BUT... those of that number are those of FLESHLY Israel... who DO say, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH," and so are PART of spiritual Israel... along with the great crowd/multitude (who are ALSO spiritual Israel). Spiritual Israel is made up of Jews... and Gentiles (which includes the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel... AND the non-Israelite nations). Most of the latter (the Gentiles, which is anyone who is not from the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah) are those who the Most Holy One chose out of the NATIONS... as "a people for His name"... and the REST of fleshly Israel (as ALL Israel will be saved). Together, these are ONE flock, with ONE shepherd:

  “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

  and come to a personal conclusion. The danger is when we try to force our personal views upon others as "Truth."

  True, yes, but the danger STARTS... when we try to come to a personal conclusion (i.e., lean upon our own understanding), rather than allowing the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel... open the scriptures up TO us. As he did for his disciples:

  "Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, [Jesus] himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him. He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see [Jesus].” He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

  While they were still talking about this, [Jesus] himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

  We can lean upon our own understanding, yes. Or... we can follow the Holy Spirit as HE leads us. Just as he led Israel through the wilderness THEY were in. The first leads to the pit, truly. The second leads... into ALL truth... and to life.

  Again, peace to you!

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA