Who Draws The Line and Why?

hillary_step

Hello,

I wish to present three situations that are true to life and open up a discussion on these different scenarios and how would would personally act toward them.

1) A 75 year old person has been a JW for the past 40 years. Most of their friends are JW’s. They look forward to the fellowship at the meetings and though the congregation is far from perfect, they are pleased with the fact that they have a purpose in life. They do not fear their impending death, as they believe the next thing they will know will be sunshine and paradise.

2) A 39 year old man, crippled from birth becomes a JW. Confined to his home, he becomes a part of the congregation. JW’s visit regularly, grocery shop for him, he is linked in via a phone line to all the meetings and seems to have a sense of worth afforded him that was missing in his life previously. Though his body is almost done, he is satisfied that his life has some value.

3) A 25 year old women, raised on the ‘streets’, a prostitute selling herself for meter change, a junkie with little hope of climbing from her prison meets the JW’s. They study with her, help her to get some sort of grip on her life. Ten years later she is a changed women, married with a beautiful family living with a gentle man, who has loved her beyond her dreams, and happy at last with her lot in life.

Would you try to inform them of the failings of their religion if you were given the opportunity?

If you would why? If you would not why?

Thanks - HS

waiting

Hello Hilliary,

I hate it when people do the question thing.

You've presented good scenarios, perhaps you'll start the discussion by presenting your views first?

Thanking you in advance,

waiting

ps: My m-i-l is the first scenario. I would not try to dissuade her as this is all she has. Rather like having soap operas for company. What will replace it? She is old and semi-content with her "imperfect, but still God's Organization" which she grips about continually.

Skeptic

Believe it or not, in real life I rarely try to tell any JW about the problems with their religion. I probably would not tell all three of the examples you gave.

If it comes up, I tell JWs. Or if they preach so much to me, ignoring my polite attempts to stop it that I get pissed off and go at it. They suddenly have to leave after five minutes!

If a JW came to my door, I might tell them about problems with the religion or tease them or leave them alone, depending on my mood.

Unless I sense that a JW might be wanting out, I usually don't say anything.

Richard

think41self

Ahhh Hillary,

Difficult questions...I have faced similar questions with my own family members, specifically my mother. In a way, except for the age, she fits the description of the lady in scenario #1. In this instance, I have chosen not to try to inform her of the failings of her religion. I feel I do not have the right to destroy her belief system which she feels validates her existence.

Perhaps I would feel differently if there were any chance of she and I repairing our damaged relationship. The child abuse issue, raising its' ugly head in our own family, has driven a wedge between us that is as large as an ocean. She has lost her daughters and her grandchildren...yes, through choices she has made...so really her faith is all that's left to her. By the way, I feel that should apply to any individuals faith...I do not feel I have the right to interfere.

If however, subjects come up in our very limited conversations, I do not back down. I tell her how I view things now, and she can do what she wants with that info. Remember, I am only speaking of one instance...my own personal relationship with my mother. Give me a new set of circumstances, especially if I thought something I said could protect someone from harm, and I might feel differently.

Ok, I will let someone else comment on the other scenarios.

think41self

She had the vocabulary of a brothel owner specializing in service to sailors with Tourette's syndrome

hippikon

No - but if they came to my door that is a diferent story

hillary_step

Waiting,

You've presented good scenarios, perhaps you'll start the discussion by presenting your views first?

lol. You are the cunning one aren't you! Now I know why they call you 'The Supreme One'.

I promise, I will express my own opinions if the thread progresses.

Kindest regards - HS

Mindchild

HS...some excellent material to think about. Damn these moral issues anyway! lol Well, my personal opinion (and it is only that) is that some people can't handle reality. When you get right down to it, our whole culture doesn't do a good job in handling reality and people are trying to escape it by drinking themselves to oblivion or taking drugs or using other strategies to avoid facing it. Who am I to take away their choices they have made?

If someone wants to know the truth of the matter, even if it hurts and they know the score, I'm going to tell them. I made this choice for myself years ago and it cost me big time but I knew what I was getting into and would do it again. So, in your scenario above, I would lay it on the line if they wanted to know and damn the torpedoes. The only exception to my moral rule of thumb here is when their choices effect others. If there choice to hide from reality is taking away the rights of someone else to know the score, then sorry the principle of the greater good comes to play here.

The WTS senior elders who are so desperately trying to make their vision work are destroying millions of lives by their egomaniacal actions. Off with their symbolic heads I say and let others have that choice to make.

Skipper

herbert

Dear Mr Step,

While you don't present a premise, you imply one; one could ask, indeed should ask - what about the greater good? What if the 75 year old converts a mother with baby and then the baby dies for want of platelets? What if the 39 year old could be cured by a medical procedure the WTS bans? What if the young mother was converted by the 75 year old and it is she who must sacrifice the life of her child? The scenarios go on - the chain of human events precipitated by one person's actions is unpredictable.

So I submit the following - one never wants to destroy a person's beliefs to their detriment merely for the sake of it. On the other hand, individual beliefs and concerns don't transcend the greater good. Thus, both the person and the WTS need to grow and to recognize that the WTS could do considerable good - as can individual JWs - provided the leadership will recognize the need to modify their beliefs.

Ultimately only JWs can force the organization to change - if they choose not to do so then countless lives will be wrecked when it becomes clear that the doctrinal system is collapsed. Imagine 6 million + people suddenly stripped of their central beliefs - who will handle that?

The leadership has one final opportunity to effect chnage so as to transform the org. into a force for good. If they don't do that then they show themselves to be fit only for Gehenna.

Herbert

DakotaRed

Would you try to inform them of the failings of their religion if you were given the opportunity?

By the same exact token, how many people in real life look forward to the exact same scenario you describe, but in "christendom?" I have personally witnessed many such things as you describe, outside the JWs and their church members were doing all they could for them.

Yet, isn't it the JWs that will go to their door and tell them the failings of the religion that is bringing them comfort? Why yes, it is.

The one thing I have come to absolutely hate in religion is their bottomless pit of negative resources to spew against each other.

However, allow me to point out a few things you forgot to mention with your hypothetical situations.

1. A 75 year old that has been in the org for 40 years is probably beyond helping. They have been used and abused for all that time and have come to look forward to it. But, since God reads hearts and man doesn't, their fate is in his hands as to they receive resurrection or not.

2. A home bound cripple would be expected to at least "phone witness" as much as possible. The pressure would be there to get in the hours and witness any way possible. After all, the ragazines have numerous accounts of people worse off doing more.

3. The former hooker may have less abuse than she did when on the streets, but there would also be the pressure to get out more and pioneer. Her sex starved JW hubby just might sense that he is missing what she used to sell on the streets and pressure her there. Old biddies that sit in the back of the KH every Sunday just to gossip about sister so and so would most likely never let her forget that she was once once a hooker (to be fair, all religions have an abundance of these old gossip biddies). With pressure coming from all sides and then being told how to properly raise her children by a group of spiritually unqualified brothers, who cannot even agree amongst themselves, just might be somehting that could turn her back onto the streets.

All hypothetical, you understand!

So, are those three individuals really better off? If the situation described is so calming and good, why do the JWs try to pry people in the same exact situation, with the same exact calming effect you describe, away from their religions?????

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

think41self

Interesting discussion. I have enjoyed all responses thus far.

Herbert This is your first post? Very well put. You could be Hillary Step's alter ego.

think41self

She had the vocabulary of a brothel owner specializing in service to sailors with Tourette's syndrome

Who Draws The Line and Why?

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