Please help!! My friend is now a return visit / doorstep study!

by AiAi 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  AiAi

  I have a friend that is a youth minister for a local church. He has a very good understanding of scripture and we frequently have interesting discussions. We have talked about JW beliefs before and he is always surprised to find that they can really believe what they do. He is not too familiar with their doctrine though.

  Even before I DAd my brother would refuse to talk to me about anything biblical. Now he will not talk to me at all. I know that he is smart and would leave givin the right circumstances but the shunning policy has effectively shut me out.

  So when I got a call the other day from my friend letting me know that my brother had come by in service and left some literature with him I was pleasantly surprised. From our discussions of the cult before my friend knows that he should slowly prove them wrong so he just listened and then invited them back next week.

  What I need help with is what should our strategy be to prove their doctrine wrong but keep them comming back? Even more important is what points can be made to make my brother think? I know he wont be convinced quickly but if my friend can give him doubts it will start the process (I hope).

  The topic at hand right now is whether we go to heaven or paradise and the difference between the other sheep and the 144000. So far I have advised my friend to make sure they stay on topic and have given him a copy of the reasoning book.

  I will update as the topic changes or the situation does, but with what I have said so far does anyone have any advice on how to proceed? I am worried that we will move to quickly in shattering their beliefs and they will stop listening and coming back
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  DanaBug

  Ooh, I love that topic! Does your friend have a lexicon? If look at the scriptures where the word "before" is used (as in the great crowd before the throne), you notice that the Reasoning book leaves out an important definition of the word. Another point is the seal that only the 144k receive, and then notice the 5th trumpet blast (Rev 9) where everyone on earth that doesn't have the seal is tortured. And then there's the word for "great crowd". Every instance in the NT is in reference to humans people. But the reasoning book says that the great crowd in Rev 19 is a crowd of angels because the great crowd that survives is on Earth, not in heaven. Why in this one place, out of all of them, would it be in reference to angels not humans?
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  AiAi

  Wow, thats awesome DanaBug, thank you! I am so rusty on this topic and before when I went over it I was already convinced they were wrong about everything, so sadly I am not as good at refuting their reasoning here as I am on other topics.
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  DanaBug

  I actually just learned that a few days ago. Check out biblos.com and the lexicon for Rev 7:9. It's a lot faster than flipping pages. Have your friend note the definition for "before" that the r book gives and then have him ask where the angels are in verse 11 when they bow down before the throne. It can mean in the sight of or in the presence or face of, but which makes more sense especially considering how the same word is used to describe so many other things in heaven: the lamps, the sea of glass, the 24 elders, the dragon is before the woman when she gives birth?

  If your brother brings up the paradise hope, Rev 21 describes the new heaven and new earth with the Holy City of Jerusalem on earth after Satan is abyssed. The nations walk by its light and the kings of the earth bring their splendor into it. How can they do that if the city's still up on heaven? I don't know how your friend believes, but a lot of Christians believe in a heavenly hope and then a paradise where heaven and earth are one. It doesn't have to be one or the other, it's both.

  It actually makes more sense when you consider that hope for a paradise earth or a seperate class with a different hope isn't mentioned by any of the apostles. Their hope was for heaven. I think there's one mention of a new earth in 1 Peter but that still doesn't contradict Rev 21.
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  Black Sheep

  First rule: Don't show him anything from an Apostate source. Do nothing to give away that he may have inside information, or coaching.

  Don't nit pick every little thing that he gets wrong, wait for a biggie. Let him have a 'win' every now and again.

  They are trained to not listen, so try to phrase everything as a question that they really want to be able to answer.

  Always make sure that he is actually answering your question. Things to watch for:

  Rephrasing the question.

  Saying screeds on a slightly related subject.

  Saying he will get back to on that one, then forgetting, or not returning.

  Attacking the source of the question, or your character, might be used if he thinks you are an 'opposer'. He must think you are sincerely interested, but cautious.

  If he quotes a source that you think is worth investigating, check it. If you can't get it, ask him for it. If you do find it, and the quotation was used illegitimatley, do not show it to him, do not read it to him, do not explain it to him .... ask him to read it to you and explain it. Many times it is better to target the deliberate dishonesty than the actual doctrine, as dishonesty undermines the credibilty of the leadership.

  The primary doctrine, the one that keeps them captive, is that Jesus selected the WT in 1919, to be God's sole channel of communication in our day. Do not put those words into his mouth, but if he gives you any opportunities, encourage him to say it himself. One bit at a time is ok. Once he has made a statement that shows that he believes that 1914 is a date that has to be correct, you have a target that undermines everything the WT is built on, including the Trinity, the immortal soul and any other doctrine you would prefer to discuss.

  I have seen my Dad trashed on the immortal soul by a Lutheran. It didn't work. Because he believed that the WT was Jehovah's channel, he couldn't give a stuff how good the opposition's arguments were. They were selected, the Lutheran wasn't, case closed.

  A friend of mine tells me her brother (an athiest) had a couple of young JW guys visiting him regularly for two years trying to get him to join. In the end, they both left. So, it is possible but, it might not happen as quick as you hope.

  Good luck

  Chris
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  Ding

  Make sure your friend knows his doctrine and Bible well.

  The WTS has sucked unsuspecting pastors into its web before.

  A good topic on which JWs aren't well prepared is the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit.
• 

  NeonMadman

  Ask them to tell you what the "good news" is.

  After you hear 45 minutes or so about bad world conditions, Jehovah removing all wickedness and bringing in his kingdom, a paradise earth etc., turn them to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, read it and ask them why they talked for 45 minutes explaining to you what the "good news" is, but never mentioned the death of Jesus Christ for our sins and His resurrection from the dead, and salvation by faith in those things - which Paul writes is of "FIRST importance."

  Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

  Then, if you really want to drive the stake into their hearts, refer over to Galatians 1:8, 9:

  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
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  Band on the Run

  My brother was a Maoist. Growing up, my father spent hours researching every Catholic belief and the JW refutation. I was only days old when he probaly started telling me how no good Catholics were. My father did not do what he was supposed to do in the Witnesses so we were outsiders doubly. We were so excited b/c my cerebral palsy brother received a good scholarship to the University of Chicago. He loved academia. Unfortunately, we were all severely scarred. He never noticed a correlation between my father's fanaticism and his own.

  I know how it hurts to see a loved one be brainwashed. Maoism was just an excuse. A deeper psychological problem existed. Maoism was its manifestation. He threw away his education. If you speak to him, he is so well read but did not finish two semesters. Opportunity squandered. He went off to Chicago and never called him to say he arrived. I've sent police to see whether he was dead or alive. Occasionally, he would visit. Family discussions centered on coming together to report him to the FBI if we heard a hint of violence. My mom was riveted by May Day parades, hoping to see if he were alive.

  Does deprogramming work? I don't know the answer. My brother was active for decades, then faded away. I'm annoyed with him but I despise the people who recruited him. Cults lie in wait to nab victims. He despised JWs and had great critical thinking skills towards WT stuff. These skills utterly failed him with his own cult. I visit Maoist sites on the Internet and still can't believe from this distance that he would fall for it for a second.

  The First Amendment is valuable but a public awareness policy towards cults, focused on practices, rather than specific doctrine. There is a central core to all cults. To be aware of these patterns rather than devalue any belief for its doctrines should be a public policy. Remember the Moonies. People are astonished when I call the JW a cult. It is!
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  AiAi,

  If you can get a copy of the Truth book or another one of the older publications to your friend with the old "generation" false prophecy and the 607-1914 numerology, it would be interesting if your brother would care to conduct a home Bible publication study with "old light".
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  mrquik

  Always start with a validation of one's religion. After all, if you can't prove you are the only true religion, led by Jesus and anointed with Holy Spirit of what value is there in listening at all? If it is just the beliefs of men, I'm happy with my beliefs. Typically you'll get as a reply "love among the brothers" (found in most religions), unity ( also found in most religions & as the Mormons, is you kick out the dissidents, you can claim even more unity) and as is stated over & over in the Bible, true prophesy. With a 100% failure rate on over 30 predictive dates, this is fairly easy. Any still in, please run this by yourselves over & over. Those of you looking at this religion, get an answer to this first. Have fun.