The Trinity: to believe or not to believe?

by speechless 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tabande1

  T. Poole, what is wrong with being Pentacostal? I think I read in another thread somewhere that you recomended a Baptist church to someone, does that mean you are Baptist? Once saved always saved?
  Religion is a way of life. We need to accept that and keep going.
  I believe there will be souls from most denominations in Heaven. We are not chosen because of the denomination we choose but because of the life we live for our Lord Jesus Christ.

  Sorry, I may be off the topic a little but I had to get that out.
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  Noel Christian

  It is God's grace and plan that I came this site. I would like to answer about Trinity. When the Bible puts the Father, Son and Holy Spirit on the same level in the same scripture it shows us the Trinity. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all, (2 Cor, 13:14) also Matthew 28:29 see also John 14:26 and Luke 3:21-22. Since the bible says there is only one God, we know we are not to baptize in the name of three gods, but the passage clearly speaks of three persons. Name speaks as much of the nature of the person as of what he is in Hebrew. In Romans 8:9-11 we find the same Spirit called both the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ. The one Spirit is the Spirit of both the Father and the son. This shows us that they are not separate Gods. If they were, they would not have the same Spirit.
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  ros

  I am Christian. Do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. I do believe that Christ was deified, and is our God, but is not the Father.

  I'll state my belief but not debate it.

  Ros

  Ros
  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
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  Faithful2Jah

  Ros, I am not trying to debate this topic because I have not reached a conclusion on it myself. But I would like to know how a Christian can say that Jesus was deified. If we do not accept the trinity and we say Jesus is a god but a different god than his father, doesn't that mean you worship two gods? Aren't there scriptures which say there is only one true god? Aren't there scriptures which say that we are to worship God alone and that he will not share his glory with another. It just seems that we have to say it is wrong to worship Christ, as JWs say, or say that Jesus is, somehow in some way that we can't quite comprehend, the same God as his father. How do you answer such questions? Again, I'm not debating. The fact is I would like to be able to take a middle road myself but can't find one.
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  bluesapphire

  This is the way I see it:

  There is one humanity but many members/persons of that one humanity made up of flesh.

  There is one Godship but three members/persons of that one Godship made up of whatever God is made of.

  That reconciles the montheist vs. polytheist problem that the Bible presents for those who do not believe in the "Trinity."

  Personally, I think "Trinity" is a word many JWs will never be able to swallow. So why push it on them?

  The answer is just L O V E. I don't care if they believe in "Trinity". I don't think Jesus does either.
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  Thomas Poole

  To tabande1 and others.... Tabande1 said
  

  ...what is wrong with being Pentacostal?

  The pentacostal mind goes far beyond scriptures. This mindset goes from experience to experience rather from scripture to scriptures. It is rampant with demonic influence upon unsuspecting people. I do not believe it is an acceptable way of worship. I have personally seen demonic infiltration behind tongue speakers.

  I think I read in another thread somewhere that you recomended a Baptist church to someone, does that mean you are Baptist? Once saved always saved?

  I believe all of the churches are in big, big trouble--just as some were in Jesus' day. Read about those seven in the first of Revelation.
  
  I recommended a Baptist church because of their teaching the scriptures to some an extent, and they seem to have less religious bondage upon the members.

  I believe that once a person is saved they cannot be snatch away from their salvation, based upon scripture. I note that your inquiry is a JW type of question.

  Religion is a way of life. We need to accept that and keep going. I believe there will be souls from most denominations in Heaven. We are not chosen because of the denomination we choose but because of the life we live for our Lord Jesus Christ.

  May I say Christianity rather than religion? Also, I would agree with you in that the Body Of Christ, the wheat, is within Christendom. We know who we are by the Holy Spirit within us.

  I wanted someplace to be re-baptize after I excommunicated the WT. I happened to wind up in a Baptist church where I received help from some good ministers.

  I now claim that I am a Christian and my affiliation is the Body Of Christ, not the Baptist denomination. Even within the Baptist group, I had to be selective in finding what I felt was a healthy spiritual group.

  As xjw's, those who have found Christ have a wonderful opportunity to help those in these churches who are searching and who are spiritually starving from their lack of knowledge.

  As xjw Christians, we are no longer bound by denominational errors and perpetual false traditions, even though we might be surrounded by them within some church we attend. A CHRISTIAN is free in Christ.
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  ros

  Hello, Faithful2Jah:

  First let me say I agree with BlueSapphire on one point:
  Its not important whether we mortals correctly perceive God, because we can’t. Love is the issue, and, in my opinion, the knowledge of good and evil. That’s what this life is about.

  To respond to your question, let me refer to the imagery of the Bible, that of a kingdom.

  Old Testament:
  * Kingdom = monarchy = Israel/Universe
  * Monarch = God, Soverign
  * King = monarch = OT Jehovah
  * Prince = heir to the throne = (Let’s let that one alone for the moment. :-)

  A kingdom is a monarchy.
  It has a one reigning monarch, a king (or queen).
  All honor and glory must be rendered to the reigning monarch.
  The first-born son is a prince who is heir to his father’s throne.
  He is not his father, he was begotten of his father, and will inherit the kingdom from his father when he becomes the king. Then, all honor and glory will go to the son, when he becomes the king, the reigning one monarch.

  In the ideal story throughout human history, a prince would go forth into the world, lead armies against the foes of his Father's kingdom, conquer them and return to his Father victorious, take a bride, and eventually inherit the throne to the Kingdom, thus himself becoming the King, the one monarch.

  The queen of England is the one reigning monarch of Britain.
  Prince Charles is heir to the throne.
  If Queen Elizqbeth relinquishes the throne to her begotten son, he will become King Charles, the one reigning monarch. Then, by her will and decree, all honor and glory would be transferred to her begotten son, heir to the throne, for by her command and will, he would become the one monarch of the kingdom.

  Would she not still be “Queen” Elizabeth?
  Would she not still the king’s mother, his parent who bore him and gave him birth? Would he not still be bound to honor her as his mother?

  According to 1Cor.15 and Rev.20 and 21, Christ rules only until he defeats death, then he will relinquish the throne back to his Father and once again become subject to his father. According to Rev. 21, “New Jerusalem” (the bride of Christ, 144,000, the kingdom) descends upon the “New Earth” and “God will dwell with men.”

  That’s the imagery of the Bible.

  If you would like to discuss it further, I’d rather do it off-line. You’re welcome to post me at: [email protected]

  Ros
  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7
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  aChristian

  Ros,

  On the surface your explanation of how Jesus could become God (Do you put a big G or a little g on that word when you use it to describe Jesus?) seems to be a good one. Kings and queens do often abdicate their thrones to their heirs. The only problem I have with that is that the God of the Bible seems to say that He would never do such a thing. "I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion." (Ex. 20:5) Jesus said the same thing. He said, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Matt. 4:10) Yet we know he accepted "worship," the same Greek word he used in Matt. 4:10. (Matt.28:9,17; Luke 24:52) Many other things come to mind. For instance, God said, "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory." (Isa. 42:8) However, Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is destined to come in the glory of his father." (Matt. 16:27) As I've said before, I'm not sure how I feel about the Trinity doctrine. But I believe that the Father and Son are One in a far greater way than the way JWs say they are.
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  willy_think

  FOUR DISCOURSES AGAINST THE ARIANS -- DISCOURSE 1 Written BETWEEN 356 AND 360.
  

  He ever was and is and never was not. For the Father being everlasting, His Word and His Wisdom must be everlasting[4]. On the other hand, what have these persons to shew us from the infamous Thalia? Or, first of all, let them read it themselves, and copy the tone of the writer; at least the mockery which they will encounter from others may instruct them how low they have fallen; and then let them proceed to explain themselves. For what can they say from it, but that 'God was not always a Father, but became so afterwards; the Son was not always, for He was not before His generation; He is not from the Father, but He, as others, has come into subsistence out of nothing; He is not proper to the Father's essence, for He is a creature and work?' And 'Christ is not very God, but He, as others, was made God by participation; the Son has not exact knowledge of the Father, nor does the Word see the Father perfectly; and neither exactly understands nor knows the Father. He is not the very and only Word of the Father, but is in name only called Word and Wisdom, and is called by grace Son and Power. He is not unalterable, as the Father is, but alterable in nature, as the creatures, and He comes short of apprehending the perfect knowledge of the Father.' Wonderful this heresy, not plausible even, but making speculations against Him that is, that He be not, and everywhere putting forward blasphemy for reverent language! Were any one, after requiring into both sides, to be asked, whether of the two he would follow in faith, or whether of the two spoke fitly of God,--or rather let them say themselves, these abettors of irreligion, what, if a man be asked concerning God (for 'the Word was God'), it were fit to answer[5]. For from this one question the whole case on both sides may be determined, what is fitting to say,--He was, or He was not; always, or before His birth; eternal, or from this and from then; true, or by adoption, and from participation and in idea[6]; to call Him one of things originated, or to unite Him to the Father; to consider Him unlike the Father in essence, or like and proper to Him; a creature, or Him through whom the creatures were originated; that He is the Father's Word, or that there is another word beside Him, and that by this other He was originated, and by another wisdom; and that He is only named Wisdom and Word, and is become a partaker of this wisdom, and second to it?

  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2816.htm
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  jerome

  i have noticed something

  the grace of our father, the son and the holy sprit.

  i thought that grace was Gods free gift to mankind.

  you cant pay for it there is nothing you can do to
  do that is so special that God will save you but
  believe that Jesus is your saviour.

  john 3:16

  if grace comes from God then how would grace

  be from the Father Son and Holy sprit.

  i know that you must have come across that question before
  so how then did you anwser it?

  [the nwt probally changed this verse or something also]

  and also

  this Jehovah word

  who gave people the authority to incert

  vowels into

  YHWY

  inorder to make it pronunceable

  YaHWeY.

  the bible is a two edged sword
  wield it the wrong way and it you WILL cut yourself!