by goddidit 10 Replies latest jw friends
I don't believe in god.
If I understand the JW claim correctly, god exists, always did, always will.
Just existed forever.
If this is the case then god didn't cause his own existence.
Then why does he deserve any credit or worship?
Only JW answer I can think of is that worship is good for us, but this means we were created to worship!
Why would god do this?
Looking for an answer to both the above questions please. Thanks.
By definition, something that is perfect must lack/need nothing. Therefore, a perfect being that needs to be worshiped (or jealously demands worship) is self-refuting.
The universe/life might have been kicked off by an intelligent being(s) but it wasn't "the god of Abraham". Due to it's own contradiction, we can safely say that god does not exist as described, if any.
EDIT: Having said that, what do you call a person who has limitless power and authority and demands to be loved and served?
By definition, something that is perfect must lack/need nothing. Therefore, a perfect beingthat needs to be worshiped (or jealously demands worship) is self-refuting.
Could not have said it better SweetBabyCheezits!
3Mozzies
I agree but I wondered what the official JW stance is? A fully in/believing/hardcore JW?
Biblegod needs worship 'cause he's an insecure jealous demiurge.
Then why does he deserve any credit or worship?
We only worship him because he is worthy to be worshiped. He gave you life and that alone gives him the right to ask for your devotion or love for him.
Rev 4:11 explains why believers worship God: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
God does not NEED worship. But he requires it. If you don't like it, then you don't have to worship him. No one is forcing you. But the "God is perfect and doesnt' need anything" argument from atheists/agnostics, just doesn't cut it.
What IS worship? Wikipedia defines it as an act of religious devotion usually directed to one or more deities. The word is derived from the Old English worthscipe, meaning worthiness or worth-ship -- to give, at its simplest, worth to something.
Basically it is giving to God our devotion because he is worthy, just as it is stated in Rev 4:11.
According to the Bible, brotherdan, god does not "ask" for worship. It's a do or die (forever) ultimatum. He also makes it pretty clear that you should be thankful if you die with minimal suffering.
One of the keys to ascension is GRATITUDE. It is very important to be grateful and to appreciate everything that we receive from God, but if it's forced by compulsion, it's worthless.
BroDan: We only worship him because he is worthy to be worshiped. He gave you life and that alone gives him the right to ask for your devotion or love for him.
My kids exist because of me and my wife but you don't see us demanding their love and servitude. I hope they love me but only an asshole would "require" love and worship - or else!? If he's doing his job, he wouldn't even have to ask for it.
EDIT: What PS said, too.
BroDan:God does not NEED worship. But he requires it.
Sure. And the WT doesn't NEED our obedience. They just require it.
BroDan:If you don't like it, then you don't have to worship him. No one is forcing you.
Mugger puts gun to head and demands money = force
Bible god says worship/love him or burn in hell (or die at Armageddon) = force
BroDan:But the "God is perfect and doesnt' need anything" argument from atheists/agnostics, just doesn't cut it.
Perhaps your god is described in the wrong words then because perfect, love, justice and all these other terms are not congruent with his description. And if he is so much beyond our comprehension, maybe we shouldn't drag those words through the mud by applying them to the barbaric, self-refuting Abrahamic god(s).
Walk the Plank........
brotherdan, why is this true?
'He gave you life and that alone gives him the right to ask for your devotion'
I really don't see the connection.
By analagy, if I created a self-aware computer program with free will and a desire to continue existing, I don't feel that it is moral or ethical to demand worship even if I wanted it. Not only that but after creating it I would feel a huge responsibility to minimise the suffering of this creature as much as I could, having put it in a position where suffering is possible.
If I could somehow *ask* to be brought into existence then maybe I have something to be thankful for but I didn't.
Please explain why '...that alone gives him the right to ask for your devotion'
Thanks
P.S. Do you actually believe this or are you just giving the JW position I asked for?
