@simon17:
To the intellectually honest witness, it seems like it often comes down to this principle. "Fine, if the Witnesses aren't the truth, then show me the better answer and I'll consider it." And how do you deal with that?
People who have given their entire life to a concept that from the inside can look and feel wonderful. So try to top everlasting life, seeing all your dead loved ones, realizing all your hopes and dreams, with a personal panda to pet to boot. I've been hit with this, and guess what, I can't top that. I can't even come close. Here's my best offer: you'll die in this system. the world is unfair. The starving kids in Africa have one shitty chance, and this is it. You'll never find out why you're here.
Who is it that accept such a proposition? Who is it that said the Witnesses are the truth? In the Bible Jesus says without any equivocation about it that he is "the truth." He also stated that he is "the way" and "the life." But how are you going to deal with that?
It's little things like this that some folks use as an excuse to leave Jesus' stewardship. Jesus says to those persons that have decided to view their dedication to God as meaningless, and have since begun serving other gods, spending gobs of money and time pursuing the worship of their favorite sport, and the create worship of baseball, basketball, football, soccer and tennis stars, as well as prominent television, movie and cable news celebrities and pundits: "Why didn't you put my 'money' to work, man?" I entrusted you with the good news about me and the kingdom administration that would be ushering in the joy of everlasting life on an earth transformed into the paradise, that would not just be limited to you and your loved ones now living, but would include those that are not now living as well. By the payment of the ransom, I became your Eternal Father, did I not? The holy spirt says 'Honor your father and your mother,' but where's the honor that is due me as your Redeemer, as your Savior?"
Your maternal grandfather that died when you were two years old and too young to remember him, the grandfather from whom your good looks and charisma comes, the one that bequeathed the watch that you have worn everyday on your wrist for the past 40 years. Your cousin that was born with multiple sclerosis and your other cousin, who both drowned after Hurricane Katrina due to the your aunt and uncle being prevented by the flood waters that submerged their home to get to them, and because the emergency crews sent to rescue them arrived too late.
Of course, you remember on the old MP3 player that "The Eccentric" sent you, as we called her, which MP3 player she decided to "retire" after she got a new one, that there were songs from Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand, Sarah Vaughan, Dean Martin, Barry Manilow, Anita Baker, Rachelle Farrell, Fleetwood Mac and Luther Vandross on it, with her singing all of the lead vocals on them. Her sister was going to be her agent, but The Eccentric was hoping to be a doctor like both of her parents became.
More than a few of these people are now asleep in death, but part of the good news with which you were entrusted magnifies Jesus' name, his role in God's kingdom as the Messiah or Christ, so you know that one of Jesus' primary functions during the 1,000-year Judgment Day is the resurrection of your two cousins, and these now-dead entertainers, for to Jesus has been granted life in himself. But literally billions of people will come to life during Judgment Day. People like Abel, like Noah, like Abraham.
Now Abraham died in 1843 BC, at the age of 175 when his grandson, Jacob, was only 15 years old, so he wouldn't have known that in 1781 BC, some 62 years after Abraham's death, that Jacob would not just be taking one, but both of his grand-nephew Laban's daughters, Leah and Rachel, as wives, so can you imagine the joy of Abraham's meeting all of the sons of Jacob/Israel, and their many descendants. Talk about a large family!
"I entrusted you," Jesus says, "with the good news about me completing the purpose of my perfect human sacrifice in becoming 'the resurrection' for all of the human dead, as well as becoming "the life" to those that were demonstrating their godly works of faith, so that those surviving the end of this wicked system of things never had to die at all, because you knew that I had promised to give to all of these the opportunity of their being lifted out of their sinful state as children of Adam to perfection here on the earth forever."
In the first century AD, the good news was being preached as good news to those being chosen and called to the heavenly kingdom, but the good news today is now being directed to those who hope to live forever under God's kingdom. We became Jehovah's Witnesses by virtue of our being baptized in the Father's name as the Most High, and witnesses of Jesus for we acknowledge Jesus' outstanding role in vindicating Jehovah's name, but we were also baptized in Jesus' name as the Messiah, the King of kings and the Lord of lords having been given by his Father a name or office greater than any other name. Being baptized in the name of holy spirit is what gives us the power to speak to others what God's word says and means.
I agree with you that the good news of the kingdom is just a foreign concept that is incomprehensible to many people today, that there are some that have never heard about the kingdom of God and some that were told that the kingdom of God is a condition of the heart. But it's not some foreign concept to those who have studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. And you're right: What happened to those billions of people who died in the ancient world in which Noah preached repentance back in 2370 BC because God had decreed the end of that world is exactly what is going to happen to the billions of people who are going to die in our present world in which Jehovah's Witnesses have been preaching repentance because God, too, has decreed the end of this world.
True, the world today is unfair, but God has left it up to Jehovah's Witnesses to let the world know what is coming, because as occurred in Noah's day so it will be today: Salvation will be based, not upon miracles and signs, but upon the willingness of folks to put faith in the things they are hearing. That's what Isaiah said; that's what Jesus said; that's what Paul said. (Isaiah 53:1; John 12:37-43; Romans 10:16-18) The word that has gone out today is the same word that had gone out during the first century AD, that everyone that calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved, which is why Jehovah's Witnesses today are preaching the kingdom of God as "good news" to as many people as we can, and we know we are not going to reach everyone any more than was Noah able to reach everyone.
Why be concerned about just the "starving kids" that are living on the continent of Africa, when these kids have starving parents to whom these children look to as responsible for giving them their daily bread when even they themselves are starving? I don't know why you would single out the counties of one continent when there are starving people in many other countries around the world today that are starving, many of whom have children that they cannot properly feed, even here in the US. You say that those "starving kids" have but "one shitty chance," but I say that apart from their parents, they have no chance to survive Armageddon. Absolutely none.
Of course, in your copy of the Bible, you learned how one three-week-old newborn actually survived the global deluge aboard the ark that Noah constructed for the survival of those nine people, right? You learned how Mr. and Mrs. Noah took responsibility as care givers for that newborn , right? I'm sure you had to have wondered why it was that Jehovah God was so sentimental as to single out just this one child -- a newborn -- out of all of the children that perished in that ancient world for salvation, right? No doubt because God knew that despite the inclination of mankind being bad from his youth up that this particular newborn would grow up with a different inclination toward righteousness, and He reasoned like a human being would reason that it would do well were it brought up by non-parents in a household of faith, like Mr. and Mrs. Noah's household, in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah, right?
But let me ask you this: What Bible is it that advocates the assumption by any pre-Christian or Christian household of the responsibilities attendant to the raising of the children of unbelievers? What Bible is it that informs of their being more than eight people that survived the destruction of that ancient world of Noah's? Not my Bible. My Bible advocates the assumption of responsibilities attendant to the raising up by parents of their own children, and not someone else's children, least of all the children of unbelievers. Here are three (3) examples of what my God's advocates as far as the rearing of children is concerned:
"Honor your father and your mother, just as Jehovah your God has commanded you; in order that your days may prove long and it may go well with you on the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you." (Deuteronomy 5:16)
"Listen, my son, to the discipline of your father, and do not forsake the law of your mother." (Proverbs 1:8)
"Listen to your father who caused your birth, and do not despise your mother just because she has grown old." (Proverbs 23:22)
Maybe one more example might make the point well as to what my God's view of just who it is that He has decreed to be the lawmakers as far as children are concerned:
"Observe, O my son, the commandment of your father, and do not forsake the law of your mother." (Proverbs 6:20)
My point here is that apart from their parents, no child has any chance of surviving Armageddon. This skewed viewpoint that you have about children, when they are those that live in one of the countries of Africa or live in any other country of the world, is not God's viewpoint, but is strictly a human viewpoint.
Yes, sir, The witnesses live on a crutch and at the end of the day, for many of them, is the only way to take it away is to replace it with another. And since I don't have a better answer, I dont think I can reach anyone that means anything to me.
Just feeling sad... Its lonely to choose the option: "there are no good answers" and being alone in doing it but knowing its right...
I have good news for you: There is a good answer: God's kingdom. This I can tell you for a certainty: There are no good options apart from faith in the ransom sacrifice of the One that God made both Lord and Christ, the Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus Christ. God is now telling everyone through His servants of their need to repent and to put their faith in the good news of the kingdom, since God has set a day when he intends to judge the world in righteous by this man, Jesus. (Acts 17:30, 31) The internet has taken down the barriers that once existed where it wasn't possible for this good news to reach people in certain lands, like Saudi Arabia. For the safety of those living in lands where the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses has been banned, we do not report the progress that is being made in the regions of the earth, but people are hearing the message we bear, both electronically and otherwise, some of them are actually putting faith in the things that they have heard. It's more likely than not the case that the message about the kingdom of God is spreading to remote areas that are embracing the good news, people who are causing it to be spread to their own family members, who for the very first time now have hope for an eternal future under God's kingdom.
@JRK:
How big does the Lie have to be before it is not "The Truth." Anywhere is better than that.
What "Lie"? Please be specific.
@heathen:
when it comes to religion especially , most people are living a lie . It's obvious that most religions are way beyond logic or reason. Not just in WT land. It's pretty obvious that the sayings of life have not been proven for any religion , since they deny spirit inspiration they can't claim to know who gets saved around here.
What kind of proof do you require? What kind of proof would you accept? A miracle maybe? During the first century AD, Jesus had performed so many signs among the people," and yet "they were not putting faith in him," the people refused to put faith in the things they heard. (John 12:37, 38) Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny that God's word is inspired, if this is what you were intimating, because I don't know what you meant by "spirit inspiration," and while no one can say who is going to be saved, we have a good idea as to who is not. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
@TheJigsUp:
my truth is, there is a hope, i believe that but i dont know what it is. i have a faith in something i have absolutely no understanding in.
i dont even understand what happened last week, tho i can read about it all over the internet and in newspapers, so having any real understanding from ancient texts is beyond me.
so now i just settle in the fact that i know nothing, and im willing to admit that.
and that is a very lonely place, but i feel it is an epiphany in itself to be able to admit such a thing and to come to such a conclusion.
If you want to do so, you could request a Bible study with one of Jehovah's Witnesses, preferably with someone that you do not know personally, so that you might feel as if you can speak your heart's desires to the person, but if you did have an epiphany, it didn't come from God. Because God knows who it is that is serving Him and who that isn't serving Him, we can adduce that He also knows who it is that wants to serve Him, but are having difficulty comprehending what the divine will is due to their failure to understand what the Bible is saying.
@heathen:
I know that religion is a snare and a racket . Perhaps the wisest thing anybody ever said about it .
This is helpful.
@InterestedOne:
My JW friend has said, "even if they're wrong, I would still want to be part of this organization."
And based on your JW friend's remark, what did you think of it? Would you want to leave the only person -- and by "person" I mean the Lord Jesus Christ -- the only one that has "sayings of everlasting life," to be a witness of some politician or of someone else other than Jesus? (John 6:67, 68; Acts 1:8)
@palmtree67:
Why do you have to go away to something else? That argument always smacks of "The grass is always greener....." to me.
And your point is what now?
@doofdaddy:
That throw away line about "showing me a better truth" is actually dripping with selfishness and laziness. It comes from the angle that what do I get out of it, rather than an actual search for the (elusive) truth. Should truth always be "good?" Should it be easy as studying [with] the jws? Should we attempt to use moral terms like good news to explain unfolding truth? Does it take real effort to find? And really what are we searching for and do we really want to know the truth?
I assume that you have come to know what the good news of the kingdom is, but I wonder if you would tell me how you came to conclude the good news to be a "moral" term.
@InterestedOne wrote:
My JW friend has said, "even if they're wrong, I would still want to be part of this organization."
@Glander wrote:
That is a very interesting viewpoint. This friend sounds like a perfect Jehovah's Witness. I wish I could be content with what is put before me but i cannot seem to close down my brain enough.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I don't know what you meant. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I have never once opined that were I to discover that the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong that I would continue to be a part of this organization. You would seem to be suggesting that you know Jehovah's Witnesses that have made a similar statement as the one @InterestedOne informs of his "JW friend" once made in his hearing, but if anyone should be in attendance at all meetings and even someone that regularly participates in the evangelizing work, their works will not save them, for it is only our genuine faith in Jesus' ransom that saves. Close-mindedness won't save anyone preaching, so if you are close-minded person, then regular meeting attendance and all the rest won't saved you either.
@TheJigsUp:
@GLANDER i reckon with enough barbituates you could have a fighting chance
Why would anyone think shutting down or closing down their brain with pills would solve the question of who it is one can "go away to" once they have decided to leave Jesus?
@Lunatic Faith:
I used to say that exact thing: "Who shall I go away to?" Then I was talking to a client who asked me if I left my religion would I burn in hell. I told her no.
But why did you tell your client "No"? If your answer was based on what you learned about the Bible "hell" from Jehovah's Witnesses, then the mainstream view of "hell" was likely to what your client was referring, and she may not have understood your answer.
That's when I realized I needed out of a religion that made life so unbearable that eternal fiery torment was preferable. "Who shall I go away to?" Anything is better than a tortured existence enslaved by the WT.
Evidently no one told you that Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe there exists a place anywhere where God fiendishly stands over the persons being tortured in a hellfire or some such "eternal fiery torment."
@Resistance:
The "Where else will we go?" question is a very effective thought stopping ritual. Especially when you consider how much time and energy the leaders of the Cult spend on "poisoning the well" by bashing other religions. They make it quite clear that you can’t go to any other religion to receive salvation or spiritual food or whatever the hell you want to call it.
What does our "bashing other religions," as you call it, have to do with the question of where else one would go were they to leave Jehovah's organization? If a kid should attend one school where school uniforms and singing the school song (whatever that might be) and that school's choosing and providing the lunch diet for all of its students were the norm for that school, what possible difference would it make were that school to "bash" the schools that didn't require the kids to wear school uniforms, to sing any school song and permitted the students to bring their own lunch or choose to eat what items were provided in the school cafeteria once that kid leaves that school to attend one that is former school would "bash" that doesn't require him or her to wear school uniforms, etc.?
Look: If one's desire is to attend school or to go somewhere to worship God, then one is going to go somewhere and one thing has nothing at all to do with the other.
I actually have an answer to their question "Where else will we go?" And it has nothing to do with joining another religion or cult. They need to go straight to a Psychologist and get some help, seriously.
Going to see a psychologist instead of joining another religion might work for some, but for folks that are conscious of their spiritual need, I think not. I imagine that trying to find the true God in any other religion would be like someone going on a quest to find their biological mother elsewhere when everyone that know and trust recognizes the one that you have been calling "Mother" as your mother for as long as you have been alive. I could see how such a quest could lead one to consider psychiatry.
@TheJigsUp:
yep RESISTANCE thats why i reckon most ex jw's end up [atheist]
Most Jehovah's Witnesses end up either disenchanted with the way in which they perceived the local body of elders treated their loved one or in their heads when they find themselves members of another Christian denomination or a member of some non-Christian religious group, because one thing I do not believe folks that were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses become are atheists.
@TheJigsUp:
i would say, if you are a jw male you ought to go to a loose woman and get the immediate help you need.
then a psycologist
Well, what you suggest here doesn't sound either moral or unprofitable, but I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I tend to take God's view on matters of morality.
@GLTirebiter:
"Not all who wander are lost."
Who are you quoting here?
@JuanMiguel:
I can't claim to know all the answers myself, but I do know that for many years after leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses that my view of other religions and philosophies was still being measured by Witness definitions.
According to the folks here on JWN, you are a victim of mind control.
For the majority of religious people outside the control of the JWs, their religion is not chosen to find answers.... Whereas other religious experiences, especially those of Christendom, are based on a "let go" type of theology, the Witness brand of religion feeds into the need that we may have for having control of our destiny, for knowing things for certain, for having absolute answers.
The oft-repeated mantra of "Let go and let God" is a form of mind control, too, for it gives to folks a feeling of security that doesn't really exist. It's like when Buddhists chant the words, "Om Mani Padme Hum," as if these words could help anyone connect with Almighty.
Being a Witness had little to do with their doctrine, for it changed constantly and dramatically. It has more to do with fulfilling this need for answers.
Being that I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I must I respectfully disagree with you here, for being one of Jehovah's Witnesses has everything to do with our doctrinal viewpoints that have derived over many years of Bible study by me and by other Jehovah's Witnesses. Our doctrinal viewpoints on matters undergo change whenever it becomes apparent that something that we may have formerly believed to be true isn't true. Jehovah's Witnesses study the Bible together as one body, and letters go out to all of the congregations whenever a change in our doctrinal matter becomes necessary, and in this way we are all enabled to "speak in agreement." (1 Corinthians 1:10)
But you did hit the nail on the head when you quoted "who." Religions are generally about "who" and not "what." If centered in humanity it is still just as much about a person as the Judeo-Christian and Islamic faiths are. These religions are about loving a deity and loving others, not about having all our questions answered. True, the Witnesses may have taught us to scorn these types of systems, but if we are searching for some type of spirituality or religion, these same systems are considered top of the list.
These religions you mention here are the "top" of what "list"?
I wouldn’t put it past the Witnesses to muddle that up as well and make that hard to accept even after we leave their mind control.
At Romans 12:2, Christians are exhorted to 'be transformed by making their mind over, that they might prove to themselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.' If this is what you mean by "mind control," then God's word would be responsible for the transformation of that mind, don't you think? And, if anyone is actually 'proving to themselves' what God's will is, then no one can successfully argue that folks are being forced to make their minds over.
@TheJigsUp:
well put JUAN
Certain parts, yes, but what parts of his post do you specifically believe were "well put" by @JuanMiguel? Inquiring minds want to know.
@tec:
I liked what you had to say, Juan.... The only answer I have to this question though, is Christ.
Did you now? @JuanMiguel spoke about "the Judeo-Christian and Islamic faiths" and described them as being "about loving a deity and loving others." It seems to me that you didn't like what @JuanMiguel had to say about these other religions because you are here advocating the same religion that Jehovah's Witnesses embrace, namely, Christ.
What exactly did you "like" about what @JuanMiguel wrote?
@cyberjesus:
There are more than 40 main religions, with hundreds of subgroups..... how many have you researched..... usually the [answer] is gonna be ZERO! so the answer to "Where will you go? is, why dont you start by researching other thoughts, religions, and they you can take an informed decision...
How long do you imagine it would take for someone -- anyone here -- to find the true religion, and will it just be "the true religion" for him or her? Will the religion they find be the ideal for the folks that he or she has been persuaded to believe to be "the true religion"?
Be critical, be skeptical, question everything, their doctrines, their sources, the authenticity of their holy books.... then you will decide which one to go..
If you are honest, most likely.... none of them
So, as you view the matter, there is no place that anyone can go and actually find the true religion, is that correct? Tell me this: Do you always advocate hopelessness to folks that are conscious of their spiritual need, to folks that are really searching for God?
@djeggnog
