FYI...I am not needing this because I need the O's permission to believe, quite the contrary. But it would be a useful tool when the inevitable discussions with my large 4th generation deep family arise.
WT admits Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 1st Century
by digdeeper 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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TheLoveDoctor
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w701/15pp.48-49par.30TheComing“GreatTribulation”Foreshadowed***
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Short though the siege was, it was horrible enough, although not being the greatest tribulation that had happened to mankind until that time and could never occur again. The “disgusting thing that causes desolation” did bring about an extermination, according to God’s own decision. The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, reports that 1,100,000 Jews were killed or died. But because of ‘cutting short’ the days of that “great tribulation” upon Jerusalem, some Jewish “flesh” was saved. Josephus reports that 97,000 survived and were taken captive and dragged off into Egypt and other Roman provinces. The city and its temple were completely destroyed, just as Jesus had foretold. Thus, in a very literal sense, Jerusalem continued to be “trampled on” by the Gentiles (non-Jewish nations) from the time of the first destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and Judah by the Babylonians in the year 607 B.C.E. But someday those Gentile Times were due to be fulfilled, namely, 2,520 years after their beginning back there in autumn of 607 B.C.E. That means in 1914 C.E.—Luke 21:24. -
Alwayshere
607 is another one of their lies.
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Black Sheep
I would suggest that you put some effort into understanding how to talk to a cult member who has been armed with many signs to look for to identify Satan's minions (that's you) without scaring them off, before you even start looking for subject material to discuss.
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digdeeper
Thanks for the tip but I am well versed on that subject. Regardless of how much scriptural proof cult friendly questions one might have, nobody will prove anything to a sectarian member unless that person already has some doubt in their heart.
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Black Sheep
There there always doubts there. They are buried. They don't like being reminded of them. They have to bury them again. Go for the shallow ones first.
Are you still in good standing?
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digdeeper
I am still in "good standing" although inactive. A blessing I get to enjoy by living 1000 miles from where I grew up.
Thankfully I am not the only one in my family that knows the truth about the "truth". But we are few in number and and must converse quietly in the background.
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Black Sheep
One stunt I pull is to get them to argue the affirmative for a doctrine I know is contradicted in a soon to be studied WT.
None have never come back to me and 'corrected' their position, but I bet they had something to think about during that study.
I figure it's better to mention something in current litterature that they are going to have read again when you are not there, than something in old rags they will never see again.
Keep an eye on the latest WT drivel that they conveniently put online so that we can do our homework before the R&F finally drag their rag out of their bag to 'mark' it.
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blondie
The WTS teaches a dual fulfillment in the first century and in 1914 era.
*** w88 10/1 p. 3 The Sign—Not Just Past History ***IN Jerusalem, in the Middle East, there is a fascinating historic site that demands the attention of thinking people today. It is the elevated area where there stood "a temple of immense wealth," in the words of the first-century Roman historian Tacitus. No trace of the temple buildings remains, but the platform does. It bears testimony to the truthfulness of a prophetic sign that affects you.
Archaeologists have made many discoveries to the south of the temple platform. "One of the most interesting finds," states J. A. Thompson in TheBibleandArchaeology, "was a number of huge blocks of Herodian masonry evidently cast from the top of the Temple wall at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70."
The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was foretold 37yearsbeforeithappened. No less than three historians recorded Jesus Christ’s words that "not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down." (Luke 21:6; Matthew 24:1, 2; Mark 13:1, 2) A conversation followed that affects everyone today, including you.
"Teacher," his disciples asked him, "what will be thesign when these things are destined to occur?" According to Jesus, the period leading up to the temple’s destruction would be marked by wars, earthquakes, food shortages, and pestilences. "This generation," he added, "will by no means pass away until all things occur."—Luke 21:7, 10, 11, 32.
Did that generation experience fulfillment of "the sign"? Yes. The Bible refers to "a great famine" as well as three earthquakes, two of them ‘great earthquakes.’ (Acts 11:28; 16:26; Matthew 27:51; 28:1, 2) According to secular history, other earthquakes and food shortages occurred during that period. It was also a time of wars, two of which were fought by Roman armies against the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The second siege of Jerusalem resulted in terrible famine and pestilence, leading up to the destruction of the city and its temple in the year 70 C.E. The site in Jerusalem where the temple used to be stands as mute witness to those terrible first-century events.
‘Interesting,’ someone might say, ‘but how does it affect me?’ In that the sign is not just past history. It was only partially fulfilled in the first century. For example, Jesus also foretold a time when mankind would be in great fear because of "signs in sun and moon and stars" and "the roaring of the sea." This feature of the sign would mark the nearness of "the kingdom of God"—a government that will bring permanent deliverance from world distress.—Luke 21:25-31.
Such things did not happen in the first century. Today, 1,900 years later, mankind still awaits deliverance from wars, earthquakes, food shortages, and pestilences. Therefore, the sign must have a second complete fulfillment. Bearing this out, the book of Revelation contains prophetic pictures that correspond with the sign, and yet it was written after Jerusalem’s destruction. (Revelation 6:1-8) Thus, the important question arises: Has the sign been seen in our day?
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digdeeper
Here is what I was looking for, and as far as I know, the only admission of a post vs. 28 1st century fulfillment. Now if they could only scripturally support their claims of a greater fulfillment.
*** w08 2/15 pp. 23-24 pars. 11-14 Christ’s Presence—What Does It Mean to You? ***
11 It is true that when Jesus used the word “generation” negatively, he was speaking to or about the wicked people of his day. But was that necessarily true of his statement recorded at Matthew 24:34? Recall that four of Jesus’ disciples had approached him “privately.” (Matt. 24:3) Since Jesus did not use negative qualifiers when speaking to them about “this generation,” the apostles would no doubt have understood that they and their fellow disciples were to be part of the “generation” that would not pass away “until all these things [would] occur.”
12 On what basis may we draw that conclusion? By carefully considering the context. As recorded at Matthew 24:32, 33, Jesus said: “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.” (Compare Mark 13:28-30; Luke 21:30-32.) Then, at Matthew 24:34, we read: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”
13 Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to draw certain conclusions when they saw “all these things” occur. So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples when he made the statement: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”
14 Unlike unbelievers, Jesus’ disciples would not only see the sign but also understand its significance. They would “learn” from the features of that sign and “know” their true meaning. They would fully appreciate that “he is near at the doors.” While it is true that both unbelieving Jews and faithful anointed Christians saw a limited fulfillment of Jesus’ words in the first century, only his anointed followers back then could learn from these events—could understand the true meaning of what they saw.