Inviting djeggnog to discuss the blood doctrine

by jgnat 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    DJ said: [there] reason I never lose a debate is because I'm never on the wrong side of one.

    For starters that's one of the most laughable things you've said. You cannot even address half the points thrown at you without creating straw men and logical fallacies. Go take a communication class and come back then.

    Second - which side of the debate would you be on with the governing body about coming here and discussing matters with disfellowshipped apostates? Do you think you and the GB would share the same side on that matter? Would you win that debate as well?

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    DJ said: [there] reason I never lose a debate is because I'm never on the wrong side of one.

    I didn't realize he typed that LOL. Wow, DJ you had your booty handed to you on a platter throughout this thread. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you lost bruh. Speaking from the perspective of someone who's never given this subject the serious examination that it deserves until this very thread, I'm more convinced than ever that the WT got this one wrong. I was actually hoping you'd present some proWT arguments to bring some balance to this debate, but you failed and I don't fault you as much as I fault the flimsy support for this erroneous doctrine. There's a side of me thats sympathetic to those running the show up in Bethel now because I'm sure they realize how faulty this doctrine is, but are kinda stuck because of the men that preceded them or as Barbara pointed out, the men who are still alive. The ok on fractions was the best they can come up with for now.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    DJ said: [there] reason I never lose a debate is because I'm never on the wrong side of one.

    Thanks for the laugh DJEggnog. So you are not only brainwashed but you are deluded too?

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Good Morning IsaacAustin..

    WBT$ Parrots rarely get the recognition they think they deserve..

    A cracker is never enough..

    No one takes me seriously..

    BrAAAAk!!!..DJ wants a Watchtower!..

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/6793621_c716d82710.jpg

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

  • dgp
    dgp

    Great! The man responded to one of my questions. The rethorical one, by the way, one I wasn't asking HIM to respond (or answer) to. But, he didn't ignore me this time.

    You see, as we know, the Governing Body makes decisions by a majority of two thirds. Meaning that, if there are nine brothers, six have to be illuminated by holy spirit to say that transfusions (fractions, whatever) are wrong, while the other three may say that butterflies are nice animals, for all their opinion is worth at the point. Which means the members of the Governing Body are fully aware THEY make the decision, not Jehovah. So, if I personally knew that I made a decision on the matter and were aware that I'm telling everyone else a lie that results in their death, would I submit to the same procedure I know to be just a lie? Would I die refusing for a transfusion?

    Can we believe that, if a member of the Governing Body had cancer and needed transfusions, a Hospital Liaison Committee would be outside of his door and would make sure he received no blood?

    Would he be disfellowshipped if he agreed to a transfusion?

    Can we really think that any one of them would appear on TV, or in the cover of an Awake!, to show how he put God first?

    Why is is that I feel they wouldn't?

    Mr. Eggnog, since you responded to that question, won't you please answer my other questions?

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW
    DJ said: [there] reason I never lose a debate is because I'm never on the wrong side of one..

    I didn't realize he typed that LOL......MiserLovesElders

    DjEggNogg has a computer program that types as he talks.

    I didn`t see it either..It got lost in his pages and pages of babbling..

    It does say one thing about him though..

    He`s not interested in Truth..

    He clings to being right,at the cost of remaining ignorant to the world around him..

    And..

    His own Credibility..

    ........................ ...OUTLAW

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Even if what you say were something you recall reading "in the old blood booklet," guess what? We don't believe Pluto to be a planet today, even if some "old book" should say so, and likewise do not believe any measure of bloodguilt attaches to anyone that uses a blood fraction.

    You would have licence to use this particular analogy if your organization had any pursuits within the real world (besides getting more members) and any progress to show for it. The Watchtower is not interested in expanding it's knowledge of truth. The Watchtower's perspective of the Bible doesn't change with time, it only springs up new theoretical ideas to bounce around. Sure, if the Watchtower gave any real credence to archeology they could really continue to learn about the ancient artifacts known as the Books of the Bible. The problem is that Archeology is part of the "evil" scientific community so you shoot yourself in the foot because you chose your enemies poorly. The scientific community's perspective of the universe drastically changes over time for a variety of known and demonstratable factors. The Watchtower has wet dreams about the progress science has made, but they'll never be able to recognize that progress (it's still there whether they want to recognize it or not, btw) because their too wrapped up in their own vision of the world.

    It's intellectually dishonest of you to compare the new information of Pluto being a dwarf planet with how the Watchtower comes to it's conclusions historically. How do you put them in such a lofty position anyway? And likewise how do you not see the blatant idolatry you are practicing with these men of this Organization?

    To compare the Watchtower's information gathering techniques, which largely involves going through well researched secular material, with the scientific community is, in my opinion, laughable.

    Let me give you an actual comparison between the Watchtower and the Scientific Community:

    Figure 1: Here's a representation of the scientific community in the 70's:

    Figure 2: Here is a representation of the Witnesses in the 70s (I can't find this scene from the 70's, but we all know it happened just like this more current picture of the field ministry. In your minds just give them shaggy hair and give everything an orange tint and you got yourself the 70s.):

    Figure 3: Here's a representation of how far the scientific community has come since:

    How far have the Witnesses come since? (see figure 2 but don't use your imagination this time)

    -Sab

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    [there] reason I never lose a debate is because I'm never on the wrong side of one (DJeggnog)

    This reminds me of the final reasoning of a famous debate; this time between a fundamentalist and an evolutionist (Scopes Trial). Clarence Darrow, a rationalist lawyer, was for free speech, and William Jennings Bryan, a fundamentalist, for the rights of ordinary people not to be held under the spell of learned experts and specialists.

    Under cross examination by Darrow, Bryan was "forced by Darrow to concede that the world was far more than six thousand years old, ... that he had never read any critical account of the origins of the biblical test, that he had no interests in any other faith, and that, finally, 'I do not think about things I don't think about' and only thought about the things he did think about 'sometimes'. It was a rout. Darrow emerged from the trial as the hero of clear rational thought, and the elderly Bryan was discredited as bumbling, incompetent, and obscurantist... (The Battle for God, A History of Fundamentalism by Karen Armstrong)

    This inabilty to see another point of view, to in a sense, "get under their skin" leaves the fundamentalist thinker in a vulnerable state, unable to see the critical flaw in their thinking (refusal to reconsider their source). Karen Armstrong goes on in her book to criticise the evolutionist camp for mocking the losers. A little kindness could have gone a long way back then. Instead, the fundamentalists hunkered down and continue to this day to react out of fear and anger. They perceive that their entire way of life is threatened.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_charter_for_compassion.html

    Additional source: Marsden, Fundamentalism and Modern American Culture, 187.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    They perceive that their entire way of life is threatened.

    That's because it is, unfortunately.

    -Sab

  • cofty
    cofty
    DJ - I believe you missed Cofty's point entirely.

    It had nothing to do with old light/new light, or making doctrinal mistakes; not really. only 1 day. They weren't taken outside the camp and stoned to death. It was a minor offense with a minor punishment - at least for the everyday regular Israelite, and not at all for a non-Israelite. (I don't know about the priest class; I can't remember).

    Tammy (I think I got your point, Cofty, but I'm sorry if I missed it as well)

    That is exactly right Tammy. DJ has repeatedly ignored the very unambiguous text at Lev11:38,39 at least 3 times now. It's easy to assert you have answered a question when you write copious amounts but we all know that is a common WT trick.

    "If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches its carcass will be unclean till evening. Anyone who eats some of its carcass must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening."

    Once more then: When an Israelite farmer came across a dead sheep in his flock he had a choice. Bleeding a dead cold corpse is not possible.

    A. He could bury it but that would make him unclean by touching the dead carcass and it meant a financial loss. He would have to bathe after he was finished, change his clothes and be in an unclean state for the rest of the day.

    B. He could butcher it and invite all his extended family and friends round for a BBQ. All of them would then have to bathe, change their clothes and remain unclean for the rest of the day.

    Being unclean was no big deal; there were a host of things that caused uncleanness. Having sex with your wife made you unclean for the rest of the day (No wonder religion causes sexual problems). It did mean that you could not go to the temple and share in communal worship and Moses was keen to encourage the people to avoid unnecessary causes of uncleanness. Just before he died he came up with option C for this particular dilemma - sell the corpse to a stranger. Genius. The Israelite didn't lose out financially and uncleanness was no problem for a gentile who was considered unclean anyway.

    If eating the unbled flesh of an animal "already dead" was a serious crime, and not just a matter of uncleanness, it would be just as outrageous for an Israelite to incite a gentile to commit the offense as it would be for an Israelite to operate a brothel for gentiles. Remember the original law on blood was given to Noah not to Moses.

    In addition to the laws that were binding on the whole nation there were further restrictions on the priesthood. For example a priest could not touch a dead body apart from that of a close relative. He could not marry a divorcee, cut his hair or do other things that caused uncleanness because his job was to be clean and carry out service at the temple. If he offered a sacrifice at the temple while in an unclean state he was to be cut off.

    None of the additional regulations that were binding on the priest involved crimes. It went without saying that a priest could not murder or steal or commit adultery. The regulations spelled out in Levitcus 21&22 are all about matters of ceremonial cleanness. At Leviticus 22:8 it says,

    "He must not eat anything found dead or torn by wild animals, and so become unclean through it. I am the LORD."

    So listed among the minutiae of additional restriction on the priesthood was the command not to eat the unbled flesh of an animal found dead.

    The difference between slaughtering an animal and eating it unbled which resulted in cutting off, and eating the flesh of an animal found dead which resulted in the need to wash and change clothes is really simple.

    Blood is not intrinsically sacred.

    Starting with Noah, who is given permission to take animal life for food, blood is used to symbolise a life that has been taken. By pouring out the blood of a slaughtered animal the person demonstrates respect to god the owner and giver of the life he has taken. Similarly blood was poured out at the altar so that the blood, and therefore the life of the animal could serve vicariously for the sinner.

    On a similar point - and you have ignored this twice now - imagine an Israelite farmer bled a pint or two of blood from animals in his herd and brought the blood to the altar as a sacrifice. We all know his sacrifice would be of no value at all. As no life has been sacrificed the blood is of no value.

    The implications for blood transfusions are painfully obvious and no wonder the society has hidden from Lev 11:38,39 for many years.

    In this context the meaning of Acts 15 is simple. Your assertion that Jewish christians were not still practising their Jewish faith is one of the most ill-informed remarks I have ever read on this forum and that's quite an achievement. The burning issue was how gentiles could possibly be acceptable to god without adopting the Law. You can read the background in Galatians.

    The solution was based on the OT requirements on alien residents in Israel. It went without saying that a temporary resident in Israel could not steal or murder. On the other hand they were not required to keep the Law; instead there was a workable compromise. The three things that a gentile might do in Israel without even realising they were causing offense was to engage in unacceptable sexual relations, worship their idols and eat their animals without bleeding them. As long as they observed these three things Israelites and gentiles could live in harmony in Israel.

    In Acts 15 this is exactly the solution that is adopted. Jewish christians go on practising the Jewish faith and gentiles get to keep their foreskins as long as they are careful not to offend their Jewish christian brothers by avoiding idolatry, fornication and blood, "For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

    It is my belief that any reasonable JW could be helped to realise that the restriction on blood transfusions is biblically wrong using this line of reasoning. (Of course unreasonable ones are a different matter)

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