On what basis could a God whose main attribute is Justice (coupled with Love) EVER bring about something like Armageddon, let alone bring it soon ?
Jehovah, a Just God ?
by wobble 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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saltyoldlady
Well Wobble - I don't know that I can answer you to your satisfaction but the throught is worthy of contemplation - so just to get the ball rolling I'll make a small stab at this audacious project - the question is almost too big and too important to even feel like getting started - I admit to sometimes passing over those items that look like they are going to take a great deal of effort.
But let's just pretend you have a big family and some of your kids are really getting out of line and making the rest of the family miserable. This scenario fits close to home for me because I can relate it to my own daughter's current problems - her family consists of five teenagers, ages 13 thru 18. One child, - we'll just call him MJ (short for "most joy" - being used in a humorous vein) has some very difficult emotional and psychological problems - he has the propensity for turning into a psychopath. He can be very sweet and loving - one of the most empathetic of the bunch - he is now 17 - but at the drop of a hat he can become a raging maniac and make life literally hell for everyone around him plus being a danger to the environment of the community. You love the kid - but do you just let him have his "free will" indefinitely until he kills off the rest of the family including yourself or himself - that would be letting things get out of control for sure - so he is currently under lock and key at the local Mental Hospital for two weeks - maybe longer. Now do you consider the parents as having been unjust? Have you tried to live in this kind of situation?
The truth is the world seems currently to be "out of control" and those who want to enjoy peace, security, and justice have a hard time even finding it. Would it be unjust of God to take action at some point in time to bring it back into balance? I know you would like Him to wave His magic wand and make everyone whole, happy, and healthy. We would like to do that for MJ too. And at some point in time we are hoping to find the solution. God obviously knows the solution and He will do this in due time but He also has His wisdom in handling it the way He is for right now. Our job is understanding why that might be. And I think it goes right back to the issue set out in the Book of Job - it seems horrible that He let Job go through all that suffering just as it seems horrible to us today to see all the suffering caused by some of what appear to be "natural" catastrophes. The truth is we don't begin to understand the half of what the causes are but one thing I feel certain about is He can set it all aright and give those who have endured double the rewards of their past joys and delights. And I also have the firm conviction He desires to do just that. It served as an example for all the heavenly host to witness that His creation of man was in truth good and not as Satan was claiming - and it also served as a mighty growth curve in Job's comprehension of Jehovah too as you will find in the 42nd chapter. Not that any of us want to learn that way but if we have to we can trust God has a good reason.
Actually the worst evil to have ever happened was the death of Jesus Christ - a perfect man. But look what God wrought from that event. He can bring good out of every evil - we just have to be patient and endure until we get to see the end results. In small matters I have seen some of these experiences - where good came from evils experienced - hopefully it will come for my grandson, MJ. But how quickly and in what way it will be accomplished we do not always perceive.
Someone else's turn at the bat now?
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tec
On what basis could a God whose main attribute is Justice (coupled with Love) EVER bring about something like Armageddon, let alone bring it soon ?
I like a lot of what Saltyoldlady said, but my answer is very simple:
On the basis of protection.
I'm not thinking the jw armageddon, mind you - but rather the great war of God at H'armageddon (or however its spelled/pronounced); when all those who are led by Satan/beast/false prophet come to attack and destroy Christ and all of those who belong to Him. The fire that comes down from heaven destroys those who come to attack the people inside the kingdom.
But however you want to look at it, it is a matter of protecting your children from those wanting to harm and destroy them.
Tammy
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wobble
Thank you both for your answers. I wonder quite where a conversation on this would go with a JW, I think the concept of the big A as stated in the literature is just not compatible with a God of Love and Justice.
Saltyoldlady chose to illustrate her idea with the example of MJ, and yes, I can see he needs the help that the hospital can give him, and for his own good perhaps he may need constraining for a period.
But that would not justify meteing out the same punishment to his child if he had one, which is the JW model.
Even your idea Tammy, which on the surface sounds O.K, begs a lot of questions, like why are those nations in opposition to the Lamb and his followers?
Perhaps they are mis-guided and feel that they are conducting a"just" war ? If so, should they be eternally damned for that ?
On what basis have they been judged? We know how laughable the JW idea that it is how they reacted to the wonderful preaching work the WT has done is, but how have they been judged ?
Jesus said in Matt 25 they would be judged on whether they had been philanthropic towards "his little brothers" without them knowing the realtionship of these lesser ones to Christ, even that sounds a bit of an arguable basis for eternal damnation.
The whole concept of judgement seems full of holes to me.
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Terry
Justice is getting what you deserve and conversely NOT getting what you don't.
Sort of like the sign at the Pottery Barn: If you break it you buy it.
The Divine Law given exclusively to Israel was tit for tat.
Balance.
Eye for Eye and Tooth for Tooth.
Restoration of things damaged through restitutions, fines, servitude, etc.
Interpreters of national calamity projected backwards some rationale for bad things happening to Israel.
"We must have broke it because we seemed to have bought it." So to speak.
"Jehovah punished us for our sins."
The Prime Minister of Japan wanted to be quoted saying that the Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear explosions were visited upon Japan because they had been immoral.
Pat Robertson had declared something similar about Hurricaine Katrina and New Orleans.
Humans need a story to explain things in a way that gives meaning to their lives and "explains" extraordinary events.
Israel had a way of dealing with wrongdoing which attempted to speak for God.
Victory in battle was God on their side. Defeat was punishment for wrongdoing.
Christians today have projected their anger at society in a way that speaks for God: ARMAGEDDON apocalypse scenarios.
It is human psychology and not divine "justice" at work.
Christianity has had 2000 years to improve the world and has repeatedly fallen far short.
Consequently, apocalyptic backlash boils to the surface and a longing for Divine Retribution serves the purpose
of putting the critics in their place.
God is everywhere spoken of in Judaism, Islam and Christianity with little effect other than promises, threats, prophetic warnings and silence.
Waving the cudgel of Armageddon makes the impotence of a silent god more empowering to those who believe.
What we wish upon others reveals more about ourselves than about any god we claim to serve.
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tec
like why are those nations in opposition to the Lamb and his followers?
I don't know. Hate? Greed? Anger? Fear? Envy? Why did Hitler and the nazis hate the jews and attempt to destroy them? (I'm not just talking about the Germans who were afraid to go against that regime... for their families or their lives, but more the ones who just hated them enough to kill and torture them.) Why is anyone against a peaceful people for that matter? To take what that peaceful one has, perhaps - something they cannot get themselves, even though they have tried to do so?
You mentioned the basis for judgment, and brought up Matthew 25. Those who did good to his brothers enter the kingdom (sheep), and those who did nothing are left without that kingdom. (goat) So doing good to Christ's brothers is a basis for entering the kingdom. But there are other basis' mentioned: forgive and be forgiven; judge not and you will not be judged; show mercy and mercy will be shown to you... etc, etc. We are judged, it seems, in the same manner in which WE judge.
Tammy
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tec
What we wish upon others reveals more about ourselves than about any god we claim to serve.
I agree.
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PublishingCult
On what basis could a God whose main attribute is Justice (coupled with Love) EVER bring about something like Armageddon, let alone bring it soon ?
God, Armageddon, cosmic justice, sin, faith . . . all man-made concepts.
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transhuman68
The Jehovah of the Old Testament wasn't a god of justice. He was jealous, resentful and extremely prejudiced. You might get justice if you were prepared to haggle with him; Middle Eastern market trader-style, as Lot did. An Armageddon scenario would be perfecly acceptable to 'Jehovah'. Thank God he doesn't exist!
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Johnnytwofeet
Once long ago a snake made a woman eat an apple. Then later on some guy was nailed to a piece of wood. The only logical conclusion is that the world be drowned in fire.
If anyone is interested i can email you a shortened version of the above essay to email to your friends.