by doubtful 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Rather than trying to prove something to a JW, show it to them and ask them to explain it to you.
The burden is on them to prove to you that the WTS is "the truth."
Often, they will try to explain the inexplicable but it will bother them.
Don't switch to teaching mode; just be "puzzled" and "troubled" by the evidence you've shown them.
Don't switch to teaching mode; just be "puzzled" and "troubled" by the evidence you've shown them.
Nicely put, Ding.
Marked to read later.
@Black Sheep,
I'm afraid that approach won't work with my mother. I've tried that tactic before, and she only responds with the usual though-suspending line of "wait on Jehovah for things you don't understand at the present moment" line, or something along those lines. I've had more sucess with her when I fed her facts too hard to ignore, and appeared adamant and confident in my assertion.
I've tried that tactic before, and she only responds with the usual though-suspending line of
"wait on Jehovah for things you don't understand at the present moment" line, or something along those lines.....Doutful
Waiting on Jehovah..
...................... 
...OUTLAW
"wait on Jehovah for things you don't understand at the present moment"
They have usually slagged off members of another religion for leaving the deep things up to the Pope/Whatever. I remind them of what they said and ask them to explain how this excuse is different.
Doubtful, try giving your mother this hard fact. The WTS has known there are serious difficulties with its date for Jerusalem's destruction since Russell's time.
587 BCE was suggested by a reader (citing Usher's chronology and Ptolemy's Canon) and was dismissed by the WTS in ZWT 1904, October 1, p. 296f.
In Rutherford's time, in 1922, there was a series of propagandistic WT articles to try and neutralize further objections to the 606 BCE date (as it was then). See WT 1922, May 1, p. 131f., and especially note the comments on p. 133.
Since then, the WTS/GB has been shown by numerous people within the Org. and outside of it, in detail and ad nauseum, why its chronology is in error and yet, in the face of an avalanche of evidence, the WTS/GB remains bull-headed about it.
The WTS/GB has been aware of the facts for the best part of a century at least. How long should members of this Org. be expected to 'wait on Jehovah' for a change on this? Or rather, could it be that Jehovah has been using people to alert the Org. of its errors over and over again and the Org. persistently ignores Him?
I had this question last year, got my husband to make up a timeline, and he could not come up with the correct date (607). He was off by a few years. He didn't think that was a big deal, but then I asked how we know 1914 is correct if the years are off? He soon realized that we can't really be sure of any dates, including 537, 607 and 1914.
The book Gentile Times Reconsidered has lots of facts to show 607 isn't the date. My husband didn't read that book though because he didn't like the "tone," and felt it was apostate.
After a year, my husband is beginning to realize things aren't making sense with this religion. I planted a few seeds, and then totally backed off. Like your wife, I also believed that the GB was God's mouthpiece. What got me was the new generation teaching. Everything I learned as a child has now been changed (generation, sealing of 144K in 1935, number of memorial partakers going up). Why did Jehovah inspire the GB to write things and later change them? If this keeps happening, why should we believe anything they say now if it's going to be obsolete in 15-20 years? I mentioned those questions to my husband and hoped they would grow.
*Check your PM*
Oh my god!
Getting sucked into this is insanity!
Not one Jehovah's Witness in a 1000 knows or cares anyway!
You may as well argue protons, neutrons and electrons and the valence of chemical reaction in a Pepsi bottle.
THERE IS AN EASIER WAY TO TO WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO.
You cannot argue dates with a JW! There is no EMOTIONAL resonance or power to persuade on your side!
What is the terrific bond that causes an otherwise intelligent person to accept utter nonsense as factual? EMOTIONAL BONDS OF TRUST.
You can add and subtract all day long until your face turns purple. You don't have MORAL SUASION.
You can't topple absolute certainity with arithmetic.
It is lose/lose.
THERE IS AN EASIER WAY TO DO WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO.
Trust is based on expectation and performance.
I promise you something and you expect it; then, I deliver on my promise.
TRUST is established.
The Watchtower Society establishes trust by rhetorical promises, reassurances, constant repetition of features and benefits in the bye and bye: life everlasting vs destruction at Armageddon.
They are like a gigantic BERNIE MADOFF promising fabulous returns on invested money.
The new investor looks around at all the high-profile celebrities who are trusting Bernie and they say to themselves: "He must be trustworthy."
Smoke and mirrors.
The rank and file JW looks around at the only friends (fellow JW's) he has/trusts and says: "They trust the GB, I should too."
End of argument.
To shatter that illusion of TRUST you must snap the illusory link between PROMISES and PERFORMANCE.
What ACTUAL performance has followed Governing Body promises?
Here is a simple test anybody can understand.
If Jehovah's Witness leaders are REALLY THE MOUTHPIECE of Jehovah it is an absolute certainty they can't be wrong. It is not possible.
But--if they speak in Jehovah's name and what they say doesn't happen, THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS.
There is no wiggle room.
See below: they have been guessing and guessing WRONG for the entire history of the religion.
"BERNIE MADOFF" is in charge!
| History of Eschatological Doctrine | ||||||
| Last Days Begin | Christ's Return | Christ as King | Resurrection of 144,000 | Judgment of Religion | Great Tribulation | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1879–1920 | 1799 | 1874 | 1878 | 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920 | ||
| 1920–1925 | 1925 | |||||
| 1925–1927 | 1914 | 1878 | 1878 | within generation of 1914 | ||
| 1927–1930 | 1918 | |||||
| 1930–1933 | 1919 | |||||
| 1933–1966 | 1914 | |||||
| 1966–1975 | 1975? | |||||
| 1975–1995 | within generation of 1914 | |||||
| 1995-present | imminent | |||||
Not one Jehovah's Witness in a 1000 knows or cares anyway!
The same goes for failed prophesy and waffling doctrine, Terry.
You really need to get your Dub to commit to a belief before you get them to back it up.
The more adamant they are, the better. They love to pretend something isn't important when they get in the crap, so make them do a good job of painting themselves into their corner before you hit them with the problem.
E.g. I asked my Mum what prophesy the WT had ever made that actually came true. "Christ's return in 1914?" was her answer. Gotcha. Any JW that comes up with that answer is in the crap. Make them dig a deeper hole. Ask them to prove it. They might even produce recent articles that suggest such a thing in not so many words, as they do, in which case you could get them to commit to accepting that the article is proof. Once they have their position well entrenched, ask for an article printed prior to 1914 that makes that prophecy. It helps if you know what is on their bookshelf so that you can 'point them in the right direction' if they try to use the excuse that they haven't got the time or the books.
