Misery:
To overturn this doctrine entirely would leave them open for liability claims.
I think that's why they are overturning it little by little.......hoping no one will notice the gradualism.
DEADLY THEOLOGY - a History of the Blood Issue and What's Next
by Dogpatch 18 Replies latest jw friends
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palmtree67
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stuckinamovement
I think they will drop it to a conscience matter. They have watered it down to the point where a Witness can take 100% of blood if it is broken down enough. It is doctrinal and semantical masturbation. They are playing with it with it enough, just come out and do it.
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Dogpatch
misery says,
thanks for bumping that. One bit I disagree with though is even considering the possibility of the WT rescinding this doctrine even after Gene Smalley and Fred Rusk croak. As you said they're between a rock and a hard place. To overturn this doctrine entirely would leave them open for liability claims. The other thing which I think is a more terrifying thought to them than legal concerns is the potential turnover of JWs. The turnover as a result of rescinding this would make the 1980 Franz Incident and the exodus of 1976 look like sunflower seeds. Comparing it to "opening the flood gates" wouldn't even do justice to the amount of JWs that would leave if they rescind this.
Well misery I am not going to direct this at you, dear friend, but since so many have this view, I will address it. No hard feelings, and it is just my educated guess. Here goes.
So who sued and won a case over the incident with Franz?
Stop and THINK. After so long the individuals who died because of the blood issue are not going to be considered by the courts like you think. Just look at the cases in the courts involving blood so far. Just one example: Look how much work and money Lawrence Hughes put into the case with Bethany in Canada. And that was a pretty good case he had. Maybe he will win justice in principle, and lay a precedent for the future in Canada, but Bethany is not coming back.
I recently put out an offer for anyone whose lives and families have been ruined by the WT by shunning to come forward, and if they had a good documentable case against INDIVIDUALS (not a class-action suit), I have a multimillionaire friend who offered to cover their entire court costs. Do you know I did not get one decent response out of thousands of people on this board? Do you REALLY think anything dfifferent will happen with the blood issue? I think your chances will end up being quite slim. The WT knows that, and that's why their attorneys work hard and long hours changing the language of their policies to wiggle out of responsibility.
You may think the WT will disfellowship you for taking blood now, BUT THEY WON'T. They are just not telling you that.
What shocked me, and I will say it again, is that NOT ONE OF YOU came forward with a legitimate winnable case, or you just decided you don't want to get involved. I would have jumped on that in a heartbeat if I had a good case.
The same will hold true with blood cases, especially in the U.S. This is partly a religious matter, and people agreed to follow the tenets of the WT and carry blood cards. How many do you think are going to come forward and go to court for months or maybe a year or more to vindicate their case? Apparently not too many. And a lot of you pooh-poohed Lawrence over "We want an account of the money," or "How do you know we can trust Lawrence?" But did you give him a phone call? I doubt it. People get lazy, or their circumstances change, or they don't want to spend long hours in court for months. Plus they have jobs. So you can just about write off any big loss to the Watch Tower over another gradual change in a religious doctrine.
And VERY SOON they will likely make it a matter of "conscience" for the future. In fact, it's ALREADY HAPPENING and has been for months or more! They are not DFing people for taking blood transfusions (despite what their literature may lead you to think).
They have already set in place their "We didn't disfellowship you, you disassociated yourself!" nonsense. Go over the annals of Christian Science and other RELIGIOUS groups on the issue of religion's view and practice of faith, and how our courts have viewed it, and you will see they don't really want to get involved, unless it is a real provable CIVIL CASE against certain individuals, like with Lawrence's case.
After so long the individuals who died because of the blood issue are not going to be considered by the courts like you think. Just look at the cases in the courts involving blood so far.
A CASE IN POINT
I recently put out an offer for anyone whose lives and families have been ruined by the WT by shunning to come forward, and if they had a good documentable case against INDIVIDUALS (elders, etc. - not a class-action suit), I said I have a multimillionaire friend who offered to cover their entire court costs. Do you know I did not get one decent response out of thousands of people on this board? Do you REALLY think anything different will happen with the blood issue? I think your chances will end up being quite slim. The WT knows that, and that's why their attorneys work hard and long hours changing the language of their policies.
You may think the WT will disfellowship you for taking blood now, BUT THEY WON'T in most cases now, if any. It is not happening!
See, another secret policy of the Service Dept. now in effect. SURPRISE!!
The blood issue is partly a religious matter, and people agreed to follow the tenets of the WT and carry blood cards. How many do you think are going to come forward and go to court for months or maybe a year or more to vindicate their case? Apparently not too many, judging by past similar situations. They AGREED not to take blood. And a lot of you pooh-poohed Lawrence Hughes over "We want an account of the money," or "How do you know we can trust Lawrence?" But did you give him a phone call? Did you contribute anything? I doubt it. People get lazy, or their circumstances change, or they don't want to spend long hours in court for months, or they don't want messy family repercussions. Plus they have jobs. So you can just about write off any big loss to the Watch Tower over another gradual change of the pen by the unethical Smalley and Rusk, who engineer this death sentence to the poor victims. They should be IN JAIL, but they'll probably walk away scot-free.
People leaving in droves? Are you kidding? New Witnesses and most older JWS who have never been affected personally by the blood issue are not going to take a stand, they aren't going to leave for the most part, because they are used to Momma being fickle "but she means well," and it will all be in the annals of history. They simply won't give a damn.
I would hope you're right, but I'll bet you $100 that I'm right.
In people's mind this is all over religious doctrine. We are too tolerant in this country, and in others, to take a stand against 19th-century charlatans who invent religions that make "health" laws that end up killing people. It's also pretty hard to prove in court that they were solely responsible.
Go over the annals of Christian Science and other RELIGIOUS groups on the issue of religion's view and practice of faith, and how our courts have viewed it, and you will see they don't really want to get involved, unless it is a real provable CIVIL CASE against certain individuals, like with Lawrence's case. Just wait and see.
It really pisses me off, but that's the way big organizations with money and clever leaders design things.
Time to study cults and how they work. Don't remain in your imaginary Watch Tower bubble.
Randy Watters
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miseryloveselders
Hey Randy, no offense taken. I appreciate you taking the time to address that. I'm sorry you didn't get the feedback you were looking for regarding those affected by shunning. I don't recall you making that offer and I wonder if others missed that offer too. That could be interesting if you get some takers. But again, thanks for responding, no offense taken, I'm a man and I can deal with disagreement without holding a grudge. I won't disfellowship you. One point of difference that I feel needs clarification regarding my point of view.
People leaving in droves? Are you kidding? New Witnesses and most older JWS who have never been affected personally by the blood issue are not going to take a stand, they aren't going to leave for the most part, because they are used to Momma being fickle "but she means well," and it will all be in the annals of history. They simply won't give a damn.
One of the things that bothers me occasionally on this forum, and I may be guilty of it too, is Tabloid Apostacy as I like to call it. We've all seen the shock threads and unsubstantiated rumors of dropping pioneer hours, eliminating COs, Kool-Aid threads, etc.. I'm not a fan of those threads because that kind of material gets people's hopes up. I'd rather deal primarily with reality when it comes to this religion and what its done to individuals and families. A favorite rapper of mine said years ago, "I don't like to dream about getting paid." I feel the same way about potential reform withiin this religion. I don't like to dream about leaving this religion and getting well-wishes from those that remain. I don't like to dream about my family one day not being hurt, refusing to have normal relations with me, and thinking I'm toast because I no longer believe in it. This is serious business we're discussing. This is real life and some days its full throttle. So I don't like entertaining rumors when it comes to the matters that are affecting my life. This topic of potential reform on blood is serious, and could have the potential in my opinion to tear this religion apart considering the history behind it, and the availability of information, especially considering the internet.
When the Franz Incident of the 80's occured, the availability of information was limited to say the least. I've posted somewhere on here before that as someone born in in the late 70's, I thought Ray and Freddy Franz were the same person at one point. I would have never heard of 1975 until a former elder mentioned it to me as we were going through some books in the KH library during a spring cleaning and he pointed it out to me. To this day I wonder if he brought that up purposely to wake me up before it was too late. The plethora of information I found on those subjects on the internet was overwhelming. Finding out about all this stuff might be why I'm on Paxil and Xanax occasionally now! Had it not been for this wonderful tool that Al Gore invented however, I may or may not have ever been exposed to the truth about Da Troof. I mentioned this little bit of background for a reason. My generation hasn't had to deal with a major schizm in this religion. Not only that, but many of us have never had to deal with a conflict of conscience that hits too close to home. I know for some of you, "This Generation" was a big deal. When that changed in 95", I was fresh outta high school, and if a householder would have asked me about that doctrine, they would have recieved the deer in the headlights look and the response, "I'll have to research that and get back to you!" Meanwhile I wouldn't have any intention of ever going back to that house. This blood situation is different though. I'll explain.
The blood doctrine is a significant portion of what it means to be a JW. This isn't an issue like "This Generation" which is so convoluted and so confusing that hardly anybody remembers what the previous two teachings on this subject were. "This Generation" just really isn't that sexy when it comes to questionable doctrines. I relayed an experience here before last year at the District Convention, and when the keynote speaker touched on this doctrine, I started examining the audience to see what kind of reaction they would have. For the most part, nobody did anything different, however there was one elderly couple who were paying keen attention. The husband started tapping his wife to get her attention, and they started taking notes. This was important to them for whatever reason. The rest of the audience though, were daydreaming or just lapping it up. The reason why is, it doesn't affect them one way or the other what "this generation" means. They're not concerned as they're in autopilot. These are the people that get their minimum double digit field service hours roughly around 10-13 hours, and show up at most of the meetings throughout the year. They take the speaker out to eat, they make sure they call well enough in advance to get rooms at a hotel near the convention site. You see, they do enough to not be hindered by the WT, and the WT does good in not rocking the boat too much.
However, that would all change if they rescind the blood doctrine. This isn't the same as comparing organ transplants to cannibalism. How many people do you know that had a transplant? I work in health care, and transplant rescipients are part of my job, but not enough where they're part of my conscience. The blood doctrine on the other hand, hits home, and not only that, but its too wrapped up in the fabric of what makes JWs peculiar. It's been too heavily emphasized as important to rescind it. Everything from DVDs, Hospital Liason Committees, special brochures, etc.. Too much has been invested in this doctrine to rescind it, if even slowly and methodically. Rescinding this doctrine would be tantamount to forcing a Jewish holocaust victim to scarf down a pork roast the moment they were released. It would be like culture shock. It'd be like taking a piece of steel that has been heated up to the point of melting and then bending it at a 90 degree angle, and then sticking it into Liquid Nitrogen. It would crack right in half like a potato chip. This blood doctrine isn't something that can be simply changed. Too much has been invested into it. Not only has too much been invested into it, but can you imagine the conversations people would have in their homes about this? In the words of Joe Biden, "this is big f#$in deal!"
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AndersonsInfo
WT will never rescind the blood doctrine and that is what I'm driving at in my article and Randy is saying this too. They are slowly phasing it out, but the Witnesses still think it's the same old blood doctrine, but it's not. Please reread my article and see all the subtle changes over the last number of years, especially where I break down how Watch Tower leaders speak from both sides of their mouth. In the years to come, Witnesses will have their lives saved due to all sorts of blood products and still think that they refrain from blood.
Another point--there is no such thing as "bloodless clinics" which the Witnesses go to when they need surgery because their condition calls for blood. In truth, these clinics they use all sorts of blood products as medicine which the Witnesses consent to and when they leave the "bloodless clinic" they thank Jehovah for the strength to not take blood! Ya gotta give WT credit for cunning to have so successfully pulled the wool over the Witnesses eyes like they are doing!
Barbara
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Dogpatch
Thanks for your post misery, would like to get to meet you some day, then you can give me $100. :-))
No seriously, I just don't think it's going to have much effect. You watch what happens in cults like Jonestown, David Koresh/Waco, etc. and all but the youth and reactionary are lulled into non-action over a long period of time. I DO believe it will be a turning point for JWs in the age range of 20-45 or so, however. It will be cause enough for many to leave, that's for sure. But 7 million dumbed-down sheep is the reality of it.They are either brain-dead or happy to live two lives to cope.
I think the WT will fragment soon however, but not over blood. It will be because they have nothing to offer anyone anymore. And religions that old and corny don't reinvent themselves, any more than DOS will come back to life as a new, revised computer language. There is just too much more exciting forms of deception to get involved with. They WT died when all the old GB died. Now it's just a matter of attrition and sects developing and fragmentation, like the Worldwide Church of God.
However... there are new developments that are going to have a big effect SENSATIONALLY on helping bring them down, so stay tuned!
Good on ya, mate!
Randy
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just n from bethel
What I understand Randy and Barbara to be saying is that the Watchtower has begun, particularly in the last decade, a slow & calculated gradual change in the blood doctrine. The linguistic and legal games that Watchtower plays with the blood doctrine is very much like the book 1984 and the re-writing of history. Right now they often claim that "fractions" have been acceptable for many decades, when that clearly isn't the case. But they are very deceiving and here's where it gets interesting.
If you take the OM/OD books. Look at the baptismal questions in the original one regarding blood. Then look at the Baptismal questions in the new one. The new one is much more vague. They no longer ask the question about "what would you do if a doctor told you that your family member would die without blood?". If you became a JW before 2005/2006 you had to answer 'you would let someone die', otherwise they wouldn't let you get baptized. Now that question is not even asked to baptismal candidates.
So the doctrine will change, as it already has, right before our eyes (those of us in the know). But to most JWs, they won't even realize it. That's how powerful and sneaky this religion is over people.
Take autologous transfusions. Those are now a conscience matter. The 2002 ( I think - might be different but it's close to that year) QFR basically changed this policy. You can take your own blood and store for 'specific medical procedures'? how long? 'it is up to the individual's conscience. What defines a specific medical procedure. Again - that's up to the individual? The only thing they'd probably poo-poo is storing your own blood, just for the sake of it, with no pending medical procedures.
How many JWs know this? Or more importantly, how many JWs realize how big of a deal this change in policy is? Very few. I had to correct a CO on the matter not even a year ago. He still had a hard time admitting I was right - but ultimately conceded.
So again, Randy and Barbara are right. It will change - but no JW will notice. Thus they won't sue and even if they didn't it wouldn't get far. They won't see it as a big deal either and leave in droves. Oh sure - some will wake up. But the only sad thing about it all really, is that many won't know. More unnecessary deaths.
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garyneal
marked
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Dogpatch
Hey Garyneal if you still want to help out on AJWRB.ORG drop me an email at [email protected]