I've got one that can see!

by Mr. Falcon 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Mr. Falcon

  Yesterday, there was a thread concerning the recent important discovery they found in the Middle East. If proven to be authentic from the correct time-period it would signify that early Christians did indeed use the cross as part of their religion. We all commented about how if this does indeed turn out to be true, the WTBS and it's JWs will either shrug it off or simply come up with some bizarre conspiracy story.

  So I decided to test the waters a little. I got home yesterday and told my wife about the story. I was careful to mention that I read the story from the BBC, so she wouldn't think that it's just some sensational apostate gibberish. Faking deep concern, I told her that if this is proven true it will make us look pretty stupid as an organization. Her response was pretty typical JW (unfortunately, I held out hope). She said "Do you really think that Jehovah would let them find something like that?" My jaw hit my shoes. So God is covering his tracks now? Is that what she's implying? It's like that scene in Goodfellas where they killed Billy Batts and 6 months later had to dig up his body because they were getting ready to build something on that property. God's apparantly going to slip out there at night and "remove" the evidence.

  Then she fell back on the last refuge of a closed-minded JW: the "what does it matter what he died on" defense. Tried and true. JWs are incapable of thinking independantly or deeply about things, so the minute heavy questions start to fly, they stick their heads in the sands of ignorance. When I explained that it IS a big deal because if (IF) it is proven true, then a lot of what we teach would come into question.

  Well, she then went to the second typical JW response: the "turn the tables guilt trip" defense. She tells me that it seems like I don't have faith in what we believe. At this point I realized that I'd better back off alittle. Don't want to stir the bee hive just yet. But this little experiment was interesting to me if we can use it as a guage for what the typical JW response will be if this find turns out to be the smoking gun.

  Anyone else try to mention this news story to an active JW?
• 

  Morbidzbaby

  Funny you should mention this... I frequently have discussions with my mom...not meaning to. They just freakin' happen. We're talking about the weather or something and all of a sudden it's "Well Jehovah says blah blah blah". And I just can't keep my big freakin' mouth shut... It grates on my ears when she starts with the Dub-speak! It's like...being waterboarded...

  ANYWAY... So we were talking about things because I said I'd never get married again, how I think it's a useless institution and how I think it's just a legal way for the government to get involved and take your money and basically that even the so-called "first marriage" wasn't a legal institution, they were simply brought together and were considered man and wife. We got into polygamy, etc. She said it was allowed in order "to populate the earth". I was speechless at first, then followed with an incredulous "WHAAAAAAAT??? Where in the bible does it say that?? This was WAAAAY after Adam and Eve and waaaaay after there were already other governmental systems in place and people were abundant on the earth!" Keep in mind, this is the same woman who told me Jehovah created the dinosaurs in order to "pack down the earth" .

  Anyway, we ended up getting to the whole crucifiction/torture stake bit. I asked if she knew how the Romans killed people. She said "No, but I know it was brutal". I told her about the recent lead books being found and if they are found to be real, these early Christians who were ALIVE THEN said that the Romans used crosses". Automatically the defenses went up...I swear, I heard a "whoooosh!". She said "So you mean to tell me you think Jesus died on a CROSS??? The bible says it was an UPRIGHT POLE! They'll NEVER get me to believe it was a cross! That's what those CATHOLICS believe! They worship it! It wasn't no cross!". I said "YOUR bible says that it was a stake...no other bibles say that, mom...The word stauros doesn't mean there wasn't a crossbeam". I tried explaining it with logic. She said he had to have died with his arms above his head in order for his lungs to collapse. But I then said "Mom, think of what you said 2 minutes ago... The Romans were BRUTAL...they didn't WANT a quick death! Crucifictions were Rome's advertisement to the people...a freakin' BILLBOARD that screamed THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SCREW WITH ROME! People were hung there for DAYS, dying slowly. Passersby would see this and know who was boss. They were a LIVING BREATHING DYING billboard. They were nailed through the ankle bone...the most painful spot. It didn't render the foot useless, it just made it excruciating to put pressure on it, which they would have done in order to rest their arms and hands from nails up there. They probably even built a little seat on the upright pole so the victim could sit a bit to take the pressure off and prolong death in order to MAKE THE TORTURE LAST LONGER. It makes MORE sense that, being that Rome was a Pagan nation, they would use their Pagan symbol!"

  It ended with her digging her heels in and saying she'd never believe it was a cross. Period. Then she got into asking me why I won't go to the memorial cause Jesus said "Keep doing this in remembrance of me"... I told her I remember every day, I don't need a special day in order to recall and that I don't agree with how the JW's do it. She ended up dragging out the Revelation book and a page from a Watchtower she photocopied and put on the fridge that talks about "spiritual fatigue" and I lost it. I broke down crying and said "No more!! Please!! I can't listen to that anymore!!".

  Not my finest moment...
• 

  miseryloveselders

  She said "Do you really think that Jehovah would let them find something like that?"

  That's classic.
• 

  drewcoul

  Falcon,

  I didn't realize you were still an active JW. It's nice to meet you. My older brother is still in as well as my mother, aunt and several cousins and an uncle....All on my dad's side of the family......My dad died as a faithful JW 4 years ago. I've been out for just a few years......but only out mentally for about 6 months.

  I like the way you approached it with your wife. I might bring it to my Mom's attention sometime in the near future. Although, she is really not able to articulate what she believes, she believes what the WT says because it's the truth.

  I agree with your wife on one point........It doesn't make a difference what Jesus was killed upon. Whether it was a stake (stauros) or a cross, it does not matter. However, I'm sure you agree, the Watchtower and the GB are the ones who have made this an issue.

  I applaud you for your efforts and I pray you can open her eyes to understanding and reason.

  -Drew
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  drewcoul

  Morbidzbaby:

  I think we may be sibblings. Your mother sounds like my mother.....lol....Hang in there, let's work on each of them and compare notes on who budges first....

  -Drew
• 

  The Finger

  I have mentioned it and waiting for the response.
• 

  Ding

  "Do you really think that Jehovah would let them find something like that?"

  The WTBTS, FDS, GB can't be wrong!!!

  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! The great and powerful Wizard of Oz has spoken!!!!"
• 

  Mr. Falcon

  Morbidz - that sucks, I'm sorry. You just can't reason with unreasonable people. And it's nutty that they then go door-to-door and berate people for tenaciously clinging to their religious beliefs. I guess poor Jesus wasted his breath trying to teach anyone anything. Humans are a lost cause.

  Misery - After she said that I just smiled and said, "Can I marry you all over again?" just kidding. I poured a double scotch.

  drew - Nice to meet you too. Yeah, I am one of those poor, miserable souls who is currently being held hostage by a publishing company. I agree with you about it not being that important except to Rutherford and his minions. Rutherford was the Jehovah's Witness version of L. Ron Hubbard. (no offence to any Hubbard fans) Rutherford ruined countless people's lives for generations and set independant-thinking back to the Dark Ages.
• 

  MeanMrMustard

  @Morbidzbaby:

  Keep in mind, this is the same woman who told me Jehovah created the dinosaurs in order to "pack down the earth" .

  AAHH HA HA HAH AHAHAHAHAH AA LOL LOL LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHHHHAHAHAH ! Oh my... I don't think I could take it if any of my family said something like that... LOL LOL... I couldn't control myself. I would bust out laughing... .. Here I am at working, trying to get something done (well, not really), and I had to read that....
• 

  J. Hofer

  i didn't because most of my friends are inactive or disfellowshipped by now. but i can tell you that when i finally had the guts to tell my wife i no longer believe in any of the watchtower religion or gods or whatever, she almost died. was the worst night of my life. but it was necessary... now she's also inactive, although still believing some of it.

  (edited to add:) make that "one of the worst nights", we had to go through worse stuff later. but we did so together.