The Shelly Kagan vs. William Lane Craig debate on morality

by bohm 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • bohm
    bohm

    This the most interesting WLC debate i have seen, it is confined to the subject: "Can morality exist without God" and WLC seemed quite off balance at several times. WLC went after Kagan with his usual set of objections, paraphrasing from memory:

    • Without God there can be no objective standard of morality
    • Without God there is no accountability and the universe eventually burn out, hence why does it matter we behave morally?
    • What is the moral thing to do and what is the beneficial thing to do for the individual is often at odds, in the absence of God, why choose the moral thing?

    and so on. Rather than stating moral philosophy solve these problems (which is something WLC would pick apart in no time) or go for the usual tirade against God ala Hitchens (Hitchens know how well that work...), Kagan aknowledge there are problems allready in the opening speech and leave it to the listener to deside which side provide the most persuasive solutions.

    For the most of the time Kagan does quite well in responding to Craig in a straight-forward manner, and not being forced to provide a bulletproof answers he has time to play the ball back into Craigs court. Craigs answers are then often very weak, for instance Craig go all-in that a cosmic enforcer to give consequences for ones actions is ultimately required for people to have reason to take moral actions that goes against their self-interest. Kagan answer and play it back into Craigs court by asking that if we do what is right in a given situation because it comes back to us in the end, there is really no self-sacrifice? -- Craigs answer is a classic.

    Really good debate. I think the tactic Kagan use is the right one for the undefined questions such as existence of objective moral standards or what "caused" the big bang; admit you do not know up front, and attempt to get an explanation why magic/God is an answer of more virtue than "I do not know".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l69QN7ixmM

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Here are my answers to WLC:

    • Without God there can be no objective standard of morality

    So what? Why is an objective standard of morality necessary?

    • Without God there is no accountability and the universe eventually burn out, hence why does it matter we behave morally?

    Of course there is accountability. We are all accountable to one another.

    • What is the moral thing to do and what is the beneficial thing to do for the individual is often at odds, in the absence of God, why choose the moral thing?

    I disagree with the premise, therefore the question is flawed. The moral thing to do might be inconvenient to an individual in the short term, but it is always beneficial long-term because what is good for others is ultimately good for oneself.

    I'll try to watch the vid if/when I have time.

  • CoonDawg
    CoonDawg

    This reminds me of one of my first semesters at college. I had an ethics class that covered some of these topics...I'll have to dig out my notes and refresh my memory. I'll watch the vid when I have a bit more time.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thanks for posting, I will have a look at the series of vids. I always find WLC's "ivory tower" philosophical arguments to be intensely frustrating

  • bohm
    bohm

    thanks for the replies, i hope you guys have time to watch the debate because its the most interesting WLC debate i have seen so far.

    What i would love to see is a physics guy who take the same approach as Shelly on the kalams cosmological argument... i would really love to see Craig trying to explain how the theistic world-view solve the problems he raise without resorting to things which are just defined into existence.

  • bohm
    bohm

    a shameless bump, but its such a darn good exchange that I have been replaying parts of it in my head the past few days :-).

  • bohm
    bohm

    (i have no shame).

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thanks for the reminder - will watch this tomorrow

  • bohm
    bohm

    You wont regret it :-). There are so many good points in the debate and i had hoped it would have spawned a bit of the kind of discussion terry scolded us for not having ;-).

  • cofty
    cofty

    bump - listening to Sam Harris v WLC online now

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