Messiahs, the Apostle paul and the spread of christianity

by Aussie Oz 10 Replies latest jw friends

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  Aussie Oz

  I have not looked into this deeply other than some pondering so please feel free to enlarge...

  Remembering that the Jewish nation has always been messiah focused and that there were at least 5 messiah claimants in the first century alone, i was wondering what may not have transpired had not Saul of Tarsus made his spectacular conversion.

  It would seem that the messiah claimant Jesus of Nazareth's immediate circle of 12 followers (apostles) were quite often perplexed at his actions and utterances and possibly also not up to the task of keeping the whole show going once the Jews managed to have him executed.

  Into the picture came Saul. Originaly an opponent of this poorly organized pesky 'sect' that was irritating the Jewish leaders, he all of a sudden experiences a 'conversion' and within a reasonable time manages to not only coordinate the whole bunch into a movement, but gets to write much of what has become accepted NT Bible. In short, Paul is more responsable for 'christianity' than even Jesus himself.

  Kind of reminds me of Joseph F Rutherford... see a group lacking direction, claim some divine intervention and form it into a powerhouse movement.

  If this opportunist Saul had not come along and taken over, i wonder if the group around Jesus of Nazareth would have died out in a few short years just like all the other Jewish messiah hopefulls have through history.

  oz
• 

  Black Sheep

  On my way out I came to a similar conclusion about Paul.

  Dubs were quoting me Paul to justify their cultish behaviour. I clicked that Paul wasn't the only one who had taken the good ideas from someone and illegitimately used them to control people.
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  Satanus

  'Paul is more responsable for 'christianity' than even Jesus himself.'

  'If this opportunist Saul had not come along and taken over, i wonder if the group around Jesus of Nazareth would have died out in a few short years just like all the other Jewish messiah hopefulls have through history.'

  Yes, exactly. It tells a person who will hear, something about jesus and his 'apostles'. Whatever jesus' purpose was, likely he had none, having a religion wasn't his purpose. As well, he wasn't divine, any more than anybody else.

  S
• 

  ProdigalSon

  Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner? ~Romans 3:7.

  Among a lot of other things, it looks like the Watchtower learned their theocratic warfare strategy from Paul eh?
• 

  transhuman68

  IMO Jesus was just some kind of hippy, who wandered around talking nonsense. Of course as soon as He announced that he was the Messiah, his days were numbered, as the Romans executed every Messiah who showed up.

  The idea that He had twelve apostles, and was betrayed by one of them seems to be a retelling of Jacob's twelve sons- Joseph being sold to the Midianites for twenty shekels of silver.

  Some Bible scholars believe that Paul's letters were written before the Gospels- so maybe without Paul's commitment to Christianity there would have been no New Testament?
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  CoonDawg

  Paul is an interesting character. I agree with the Rutherford analogy. Even the misogeny goes well here. I think Paul was kind of a prick and I likely wouldn't have liked him too much - kind of a 1st century Ted Jarecz.
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  tec

  Paul was condemning that thought in Romans 3:7, PS. If the WT is using that strategy, then they are grouped among those that Paul disagreed with.

  We have a very limited view of Paul. One side of the telephone conversation. Many of the things Paul wrote about in his letters were in response to what had been written to him first. How many times do we have to explain what we meant even here, because someone has misunderstood us? Face to face is better, because we can see facial expressions, tones, nuances, etc. Peter even said that men distort what Paul said, not understanding. At the same time, Paul had his own background to contend with also. People aren't always freed from their upbringing in a blink of an eye. I think he still would have had to contend with the strict laws he had been raised in. You do see a difference in some of his letters. Obeying laws here, speaking more about freedom from laws elsewhere.

  Perhaps he pushed harder because he had something to make up for, rather than being an opportunist? Such as the persecution of Jewish Christians and abetting the stoning of Stephen.

  Tammy
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  wobble

  Sorry , I thoughht Brian was the Messiah ?

  Or was he just a very naughty boy ?
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  Terry

  I think of Paul as coming along at just the right time to fill a vacuum.

  Like the Beatles music coming to America.

  It paved the way for the British Invasion the way Paul paved the way for the spread of christianity.

  Lots of Beatles clones and spinoffs went on to fame while others were one-hit-wonders and fell by the wayside.

  There were Superfine Apostles in Paul's day and Judaizers as well as guys like Marcion and their popular Gnosticism.

  But, the Beatles stayed on top and so did Paul.

  Both the Beatles and Christianity had their very own PAUL, didn't they?

  The Beatles broke up because of PAUL and so did the messianic-Jewish-christianity!

  Beatle Paul's nearest and dearest competitor was John who was destroyed outside where he lived.

  Apostle Paul's nearest and dearest competitor, Judaism, was destroyed institutionally where it lived: Jerusalem.

  Both Pauls went on to fame and glory and are still rockin!
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  Aussie Oz

  I wonder if we read Apostle Pauls words backwards if we get some secret message???

  oz