On Human Evolution

by TD 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • Cadellin
    Cadellin

    When I was working on my undergrad degree, I took a course in physical anthropology, the lab of which was osteology (nothing but old bones). I remember a similar question came up and the professor said that morphological differences b/w the australopithecines and H. habilis were insignificant. The reason for the taxonomic difference was the presence of stone tools at habilis sites and lack of them at australopithecine sites. Now it's not so cut-and-dried as it sounds, but it speaks to the point made by another poster that evolution isnt black and white but rather undulating shades of beige and grey. Which is exactly what you'd expect from a process that tinkers, gerry-rigs, makes-do, and sometimes transitions slowly (and sometimes leaps). Creation, by contrast, coming from a perfect God Designer, predicts that things SHOULD be cut-and-dry, easily demarcated, discrete entities or kinds and no relation whatsoever b/w--uh, "basic kinds," whatever that is.

    One of the key differences between (modern) ape and human lineages, however, is bipedalism, indicated by the location of the foramen magnum, or the big hole in the skull where the spine engages. Apes' are located toward the back of the skull while hominids (the human line) are directly anterior. It's worth noting that all the skulls in TD's line-up have an anterior foramen magnum, meaning that they are all hominids, though not necessarily directly antecedent to modern humans.

    Complicated? You bet. That's why the strawman arguments of creationists are so insidious, and why there's so much misunderstanding, which is capitalized on by creationists like the WT. I sat through the WT this past Sunday and honest to God, lost a half-dozen IQ points. I kept looking around, thinking to myself, "C'mon, folks, is there even a teaspons of critical thinking being applied anywhere in the room?"

  • DagothUr
    DagothUr

    I sat through the WT this past Sunday and honest to God, lost a half-dozen IQ points.

    That was exactly my sensation too. Otherwise I cannot explain how could I endure for 2 years being a dub.

  • Slidin Fast
    Slidin Fast

    I would love to give an authoritive, well substantiated answer to this fascinating question but I am unable to. Had I not been forbidden higher education maybe I would have the tools to make an educated annd informed shot at this.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Creation, by contrast, coming from a perfect God Designer, predicts that things SHOULD be cut-and-dry, easily demarcated, discrete entities or kinds and no relation whatsoever b/w--uh, "basic kinds," whatever that is.

    Really? You learned that at what school?

  • Cadellin
    Cadellin

    Really? You learned that at what school?

    The WT school, of course!

    "[DNA] is very stable and has served to maintain the distinction b/w basic kinds of creatures down through the ages." (WT 2/15/2011, p. 9)

    "...There is a limit to the amount of variation that can occur within a "kind." Both the fossil record and modern research support the idea that the fundamental categories of plants and animals have changed little over vast periods of time." (Was Life Created? p. 28)

    "If living things were created, they would be expected to appear suddenly in the fossil record, unconnected to anything before them." (Life--How Did it Get Here? p. 57) (emphasis added.)

    One of the fundamental differences b/w evolution and creation is the belief that species arise through acts of special creation, not from existing species. Hence, it follows that, according to creation, species (or "kinds," whatever they are) are "stand-alone" groups, unique from other "kinds," with no intermediaries or transitions, extant or fossilised.

    This is not what we see in the real world. Rather, transitions--or transitional features--abound.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Cadellin

    One of the fundamental differences b/w evolution and creation is the belief that species arise through acts of special creation, not from existing species. Hence, it follows that, according to creation, species (or "kinds," whatever they are) are "stand-alone" groups, unique from other "kinds," with no intermediaries or transitions, extant or fossilised.

    You mean creation as the WT teaches it. Be aware that very few agree with the WT school. They don't speak for all or even most creationists.

    For example:

    "...There is a limit to the amount of variation that can occur within a "kind."

    How does the WT know what the limit is "within a 'kind'."?

    This is not what we see in the real world. Rather, transitions--or transitional features--abound.

    I agree, there is much variation (within a kind) in the real world. However, I wouldn't call these variations "transitional" into another kind.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    Knowledge of our mortality is what I believe makes us different than the rest of the species on this planet. Along with the animals we are survivors, but unlike them, we know that our efforts will only lengthen our life, not save it. I think everything that is us hinges from the time that that awareness sprung into existence.

    As it always has been for the creatures of this planet: life is a means to death. I believe that somewhere down the line our species figured that out and what a can of worms it turned out to be.

    -Sab

  • TD
    TD

    DD,

    Where would you draw the line between "Kinds" among the hominids in the OP?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    TD

    I don't think you can draw that line based on "appearance". I'm sure there are/were many humans that looked more apelike than other humans and apes that appeared more human than other apes. I think this is the problem with much of the science on the topic today. Genetics actually make the real determination.

    If there is as much variation in humans as there is in other species, like dogs for example, we could all be surprised by what is possible within the human genome.

    I think the line is drawn (scientificly) by the possibility of a mating that produces fertal, viable offspring. I don'think I'm stating something that most of us don't already know.
  • Cadellin
    Cadellin

    I agree, there is much variation (within a kind) in the real world. However, I wouldn't call these variations "transitional" into another kind.

    It's not a matter of simple variation, which can occur randomly within any contemporary population, but rather of those variations, to use the term, occurring within specific time periods. When you examine those variations within a chronological timeframe, as TD has lined up the skulls, then the transitional significance of those variations becomes clear, particularly when considered against the backdrop of geological and climatological patterns. In fact, that's how evolution works. Random variations take on "good" or "bad" significance only in view of the prevailing environmental pressures and can come to dominate a population when they convey some benefit, even if very small.

    However, you added a very good point, and that is that the WT view of creationism isn't the only view out there. Toward the end of the transitional fossils essay that I linked to, the writer (whose name escapes me, aggh) discusses something like five different creation scenarios and how each does or does not harmonize with the fossil record. Pretty interesting--the WT likes to make out that you're either a creationist or an athiest, and nothing could be further from the truth.

    I want to add more but gotta run!!

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