Were the WT thinking of abandoning the 607 B.C.E date back in 2000?

by nicolaou 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    This what they wrote in the 'Isaiah' book; *** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

    “She Must Return to Her Hire”

    21 Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king.” (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

    That was a very significant change of direction but it just wasn't followed through. Was there a disagreement somewhere perhaps?

  • Alfred
    Alfred

    The governing body revisited this subject in sessions held on June 7, 1978, March 6, 1979 and November 14 1979, but nothing ever came out of those discussions... they kept 607 and 1914 even though they knew the evidence was stacked up a mile high against 607... Not sure if this was revisited again in 2000...

  • GrandmaJones
    GrandmaJones

    I am certainly bookmarking this one.

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

    That was a very significant change of direction but it just wasn't followed through. Was there a disagreement somewhere perhaps?

    Whoa, Nicolaou, good catch!!!! I can't recall any WT literature taking the Babylonian domination or nations being in servitude approach. This really slipped by them, huh?

  • sir82
    sir82

    Very interesting.

    This is also about the same time as the "autologous blood transfusion" blood cards that were quickly called back.

    Was there going to be a reformation? Did reformers have a bare 2/3 majority and then somebody got cold feet?

    Did any GB members die around 2000 - 2001 that might have tipped the vote to under 2/3?

    Or maybe it was just a rogue writer who was sympathetic to the truth and sneaked one past the GB proofreaders?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    There have been previous threads on this topic. Remember this section is discussing the seventy years in relation to Tyre not the other seventy years on which Watchtower chronology hangs. But it is nevertheless significant.

    I remember this study vividly. I shook my head that others in the congregation could not see the consequences of this statement. If the Watchtower could so blithely describe one seventy year period as symbolic then why not another?

  • fade_away
    fade_away

    "Evidently" "Obviously" "Clearly" "Surely" are all words used by the WT to make it look like they're not changing their doctrines, but instead clarifying and confirming to their followers what they've always tought....pathetic.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Interesting the WTS is roughly saying this prophecy wasn't fulfilled by saying Tyre did not serve a complete 70 years. But that is due to their own misunderstanding.

    Regardless of when you date the fall of Jerusalem, however, Josephus claims that 70 years of exile was served by those last deported in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar! He records that during a campaign in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II, he went down to Egypt and then deported the people from there back to Egypt. The Bible confirms the last deportation was in year 23:

    ANT 10.9.7

    "the twenty-third of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, he made an expedition against Celesyria; and when he had possessed himself of it, he made war against the Ammonites and Moabites; and when he had brought all these nations under subjection, he fell upon Egypt, in order to overthrow it; and he slew the king that then reigned (16) and set up another; and he took those Jews that were there captives, and led them away to Babylon."

    This is consistent with the Biblical account that says a small remnant of those who "escaped from the sword" of Nebuchadnezzar down in Egypt would return to Judea. Thus when Nebuchadnezzar deported these last deportees in year 23, they must have gone to Babylon via Judea, perhaps staying there for a short while and gathering supplies.

    This final campaign though, likely deported anyone left in this land, including any remnant population at Tyre, so that Tyre would be desolated the same 70 years as the land of Judea and Israel in connection with the final deportation in year 23.

    Thus the 70 years per both Josephus and the Bible are spent by the last deportees from year 23. The problem the WTS has is that it thinks the 70 years begin with the year Jerusalem fell! They know further Tyre was to drink the cup of Nebuchadnezzar after first Jerusalem drank. So they are confused by the 70-year desolation when they misapply the 70 years and ignore Josephus. But there is no excuse because the Bible definitely notes a 23rd year deportation out of the land. In order to get around this, ignoring Jeremiah 44:14 and 28 that says those from Egypt would return to Judea, they make it a point to say that those deported in year 23 must have been some who scattered when Gedeliah was killed. They then quote from Josephus about this final campaign in year 23 and claim that therefore the Jews deported in year 23 were outside of Judea so you don't get the idea that anyone was in Judea after the fall of Jerusalem. They definitely, then, ignore Josephus' specific reference that those deported were those out of Egypt. But if the WTS acknowledged that, it is too clear they would have gone back through Judea and thus the land was not totally desolated. Here is there desperate fantasy about who was deported in year 23, from the Insight Book.

    Insight Book, under "Captivity": "Some two months later, after the assassination of Gedaliah, the rest of the Jews left behind in Judah fled to Egypt, taking Jeremiah and Baruch along with them. (2Ki 25:8-12, 25, 26; Jer 43:5-7) Some of the Jews also may have fled to other nations round about. Probably from among these nations were the 745 captives, as household heads, exiled five years later when Nebuchadnezzar, as Jehovah’s symbolic club, dashed to pieces the nations bordering Judah. (Jer 51:20; 52:30) Josephus says that five years after the fall of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar overran Ammon and Moab and then went on down and took vengeance on Egypt.—Jewish Antiquities, X, 181, 182 (ix, 7).

    The 745 captives were those deported in year 23. Of course, they know quite well Josephus claims these were deported from Egypt because they quote him to establish the 23rd year campaign at Antiquities, 10.9.7, which is quoted above.

    So they are full of lies and deception.

    BIBLE PROPHECY FULFILLED: So we have to ignore the WTS in regards to their calculation of the 70 years which they begin with the fall of Jerusalem dated to 607 BCE, which is non-Biblical. The 70 years are counted from the last deportation in year 23, as confirmed by Josephus. But in that case, also noted by Josephus, the siege of Tyre was for 13 years beginning in year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar and thus ending in year 20. This is not contradicted by the Bible because it says that Jerusalem was the first to drink of the bitter cup of Nebuchadnezzar. Thus the fall of Tyre in year 20 is consistent with the fall of Tyre after Jerusalem fell, which occured in year 19.

    But much like Jerusalem, a small remnant of the population might have also been left in Tyre after its fall as in the case of Jerusalem, with the final deportation of these small remnant populations taking place in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, so that Tyre was left completely desolated for 70 years along with many other cities. Then after Cyrus came to the throne and released many peoples 70 years later, they returned to rebuild. Thus the WTS lies when they say Tyre was not forgotten for a full 70 years. They were!

    So JWs are in no way abandoning their 607 BCE dating. They are, instead, suggesting the Bible's prophecies are not true or are not consistent with the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, which it is not, that is, that is not when the 70 years in the Bible begins. It begins at the time of the last deportation in year 23, which affords for the 70 years to be imposed upon Tyre and allows Tyre to fall after Jerusalem does. When you incorrectly date the 70 years from the fall of Jerusalem, as does the WTS, then it contradicts Scripture and they simply say the Bible was lying when it said Tyre would be desolated for 70 years. But there is no way they could challenge 1914, the central date in their whole doctrine. They'd rather say Tyre did not serve 70 years rather than say 1914 is wrong.

    This is a perfect example of why they are called the "man of lawlessness" at 2 Thess 2, because one lie leads to another. They lie about when the 70 years actually begin and they lie about who was deported in year 23. Instead, they invent a lie that claims those deported were some scattered Jews out there outside of Judea. They don't dare have any witness think the last deportation was of Jeremiah and Baruch and a few others who were rescued from Egypt. Why? Because everybody would know they would go right through the main route to Babylon via Jerusalem and Judea! They can't have that and claim the land was desolated from the fall of Jerusalem.

    In other words, even if you date the return in 537 BCE, 607 BCE is the date of the last deportation, not the fall of Jerusalem! If they move the fall of Jerusalem back 4 years to 611 BCE then the 2nd coming will occur in 1910 rather than 1914, for year 19, or 1909 if dated to year 18.

    So again, there is no way they are giving up 607 BCE, which they need for 1914. They would rather distort the facts and claim the Bible lies than give up 607 BCE. They are the "man of lawlessness" and the "false prophet" and will meet their end in the lake of fire along with apostate Christendom.

    LS

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Just as with all their doctrines, they slowly change them over time introducing little changes here and there to make it seem they do not outright reject a teaching. Same goes for the identity of the wild beast, the generations etc. First they stop mentioning it, then they start twisting it then they just bring it out in a publication and when you blink (or dozed off for a second during that study) you missed it. Eventually the 'new light' starts appearing more and more in talks and publications and a lot of people just think THEY just had the wrong idea or misinterpreted it and the WTBTS had it right the whole time.

    With core ideas like the generations (which recently changed) and the kings of north/south and wild beast (which hasn't changed yet but hasn't been mentioned for a decade either) they wait a long time and when it does change they sustain some damage in their 20-40 age group but the rest is either too young to remember or too old to want to change. Some people just keep believing the old stuff until they die which nobody seems to care that they do.

  • stapler99
    stapler99

    Very interesting.

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