Is "Lying for the Truth" a real expression among JW's or just something apostates or worldlies made up? (page 2)

pirata

While it is mentioned in the publications, it is rarely mentioned or used, at least in places where the work is not under ban.

Found Sheep

I've heard "theocratic stratagy" all the time

Black Sheep

I have never heard a JW use that expession, but give me five minutes with one and they will do it.

It is a common strategy among high control groups and is sometimes given names to sanitize it, Theocratic Warfare, Fair Game, Heavenly Deception.

Aussie Oz

It was this matter that led me to this site where i found the 'child custody' material that instructs parents and children very well the practice of theocratic war strategy.

and that turned me into a very anti Jw fellow!

oz

Black Sheep - I realize each situation is different, and I am slowly developing a sense of what is going on when I interact with these people, but is there anything you can recommend I can say that will invoke this behavior from them? I want to see them do it. Not call them out on it. I just want to see it.

TTWSYF

Interested One, if you wanna see an example of 'lying for the truth' there are many sources to choose from, but I doubt you would find the term in any Watchtower or Awake.

A big example of 'lying for the truth' [to me anyway] is the booklet 'Should you believe in the Trinity?'

Numerous quotes are taken out of context and no footnotes are ever produced. The booklet speaks highly of these early christain writers. When referencing the Early Church Fathers they site [6] early writers-Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian - all portrayed as being against Jesus's divinity.

The reality is that everyone of these men affirmed that Jesus was God. Several even gave detailed teachings and explainations about the Trinity.

And according to Jason Evert ['Answering Jehovah's Witnesses' pg 62, 2001- Catholic Answers, inc] 'it is also significant that Ignatius of Antioch (the apostle John's own disciple) is omitted from the list, for his letters refer seven times to Jesus as God'

Is that an example of 'Lying for the Truth?'

dc

InterestedOne

TTWSYF - Yeah, that is a good point that their literature displays "lying for the truth" with all of their misquotations, etc. Do you have any thoughts on my question to Black Sheep about personal interaction with them? I thought he made an interesting point that all he has to do is talk to them for 5 minutes, and they will do it. I would like to experience this in real-time with one, and was wondering what I might say to them that would make them start lying.

Mad Sweeney

They don't jump straight to lying. When you ask a question they don't want to answer they try to change the subject first. If that doesn't draw you off the scent, they will then obfuscate and answer a question that is sort of like what you asked but not exactly. It is only when you have them cornered that they will outright lie.

There are many awkward and uncomfortable subjects they don't like to talk about. You might ask, "Is it true that if a 10 year old girl told the elders that she was molested by a man in the congregation, but there are/were no other witnesses, that the accused man would not be disciplined, the elders would not report it to the legal authorities, and the girl and her family would be forbidden to make the accusations public in the congregation?"

Any other ideas for questions?

TTWSYF

My experiences with JWs [at the door] is that the lies come within the first few moments. And I'm not talking about withholding that they are JWs, I mean blatant lies like 'Jesus never told Peter that he was the rock that he'd build his Church on' or 'Peter wasn't a pope [the pope, bishop of Rome, etc].

Now if you do not have the knowledge of the scriptures and someone comes to your door with books and a bible and throws out some randon scriptural references, you would maybe tend to believe them, otherwise, how could so many former Catholics/Protestants be JWs? The more informed one is on the Church, the scriptures, and the early Christain writers, the more the lies stand out and thus WTS credibility crumbles.

respectfully,

dc

InterestedOne

MS - I forgot about the avoidance tactics they use first. In addition to the ones you mentioned, here is a big one: I found that they will ask, "why are you asking that?" rather than simply answer. The question you suggested is well-phrased and interesting, and I will consider asking it if the right moment occurs. However, I have found that with hypotheticals they avoid by saying "that's hypothetical and I can't answer that kind of question because I would need to know all the details of a real situation."

Is "Lying for the Truth" a real expression among JW's or just something apostates or worldlies made up?

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