How can you go back to celebrating the holidays after you leave the organization. Don't you still feel that they are pagan?
Christmas and other Holidays?
by lv4fer 18 Replies latest jw friends
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Yerusalyim
ANY christian belief can be traced back to some "pagan" ideal. What are the Society's own words in regards to things with pagan origins, i.e. wedding rings? If the pagan origin is forgotten by most and replaced by OTHER ideals then it is no longer pagan. Do you think Christians that celebrate Christmas REALLY worship trees?
If you study the history a bit more deeply you'll find that things like Christmas were raised IN OPPOSITION TO pagan holidays, and not as replacements.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
orangefatcat
What difference does it make? You are out of the organization, most people don't give a dam if its pagan or not, just enjoy and be happy. That is what I did. I mean if you out of the org, you are out all the way. Don't feel guilty,enough people will do that for you in your life.Take life by the horns and party.
PROCRASTINATION IS THE THIEF OF TIME
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JanH
Define "pagan".
- Jan
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- "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets") -
Valis
This a very good site that defines the term pagan..Its the same old story of christian egocentrism...
http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.HTML
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
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Hmmm
It cracks me up that wedding talk outlines have the disclaimer that the wedding rings are only a symbol of the couple's joining, there's nothing special about them, yadda yadda yadda. (Tell that to your wife, if you lose your ring, and see how that goes over.) The last three JW weddings I attended said this, but didn't specifically say that wedding rings can be traced to pagan roots.
So by the Watchtower's reasoning, I can celebrate any "pagan" holiday I want, as long as I use their wedding ring disclaimer? No? Then why not? Why can JWs wear pagan rings on their fingers 24/7/365 (not counting the odd extra-marital affair), but can't give gifts on one specific day?
The whole holiday=pagan thing was probably the last hang-up that I let go of. I still don't celabrate them because of my family, and there's no rule book that says you have to if you leave the JWs, but the society is being inconsistent in forbidding one thing with "pagan roots" but allowing another.
Last month I went to my nephew's birthday party--my first, his third. After the ritual slaying of the virgin, it was a pretty tame affair. I figured he was getting old enough to realize who was and wasn't there, so I swore his parents to secrecy and went. When I saw his joy at getting his presents, and eating pizza and cake with 15 of his 2-4 yr old friends (oh, his brave mother), I couldn't see how this could possibly be a bad thing.
Creature worship? Please. Parents want to make their kids feel special for one day, and a bunch of isolated men (well, 2/3 of them at least) in NY twist it into a bad thing?
Ray Franz writes about a couple he knows who had a tough time with the birth of their child. If I recall correctly, the child wasn't expected to live. Because of this, the couple felt more joy on the anniversary of his/her birth than on the anniversary of their marriage. Yet the Society has deemed that it was OK to engage in creature worship of two people--complete with pagan rings of matrimony--but not the celebration of the children of that union.
Hmmm
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Solace
Being raised a J.W. I never celebrated a holiday untill now. I think J.W.s place too much importance on keeping people from celebrating. I can honestly say that growing up we spent more time talking about not celebrating holidays than any of the 10 commandments. Maybe its because its constantly comming up throughout the year. Anyway, I tell my family that I think its all about tradition, celebrating the birth of Jesus and being with your family. To me, having a Christmas tree up is like having any other decoration in my home at any other time of the year and when I start worshipping it then they can have reason to worry, untill then, I dont want to hear a word about it. I am not going to have my children grow up with the huge guilt trip I had for accepting Christmas gifts, eating B-day cake etc. Also, if you think about it, by having you refuse to celebrate holidays with your family this is another way for the Org. to distance you from your unbelieving family which makes you even more dependant on their Org. They say "We are your spiritual family, thats all you need". I didnt feel this way overnight or anything. The first time I had a Christmas tree in my home I felt so much guilt I was almost physically sick. I think back now at how much anxiety I felt over nothing. There are so many more important issues to be worried about. Oh, and its great fun with the kids too! Gotta go now, were filling out our Valentine cards!
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anewperson
CHRISTMAS -- THE REAL TRUTH: More recent scholarly studies prove that Christmas Tree is from the Tree of Eternal Life (Ge 2:9, 3:22) depicted in church plays of the Middle Ages, not Luther or Druid tree-worshippers, although outdated articles for example in World Book Encyclopedia still repeat the legends and Luther may have originated the use of candles attached to Christmas trees.
The giant cedars of Lebanon used to build the temple at Jerusalem themselves had bright green needles with tan-colored cones, and John 10:22-3 says Christ visited the successor temple during the Jewish "Festival of Dedication," namely Channukah, during winter. Also called the Festival of Lights, it had singing, the carrying of tree branches, homes filled with lights and joy. Celebrated 8 days each time, its date varies yearly but the first Channukah was December 25, making it an even more likely source for the December 25 celebration than Rome's Saturnalia which came later in the month. Some believe Christ was actually born about Oct 1, which would mean Mary conceived 9 months previously, that is about or on December 25. Indeed count 9 months backwards from October to see for yourself. As to Santa Claus, no, he did not come from a vaguely known Asian god who descended chimneys to bring gifts or Siberian wizards but instead the Christian Nicholaus a famous gift-giver in Turkey in the Middle Ages.
In fact Christ himself was wrongly attacked as a "glutton and drunkard" simply for believing in a good time (Mt 11:19). He once turned water to wine at a wedding party in Cana (Jn 2:1-11), told followers to invite needy persons to parties (Lu 14:13-14), and accepted gifts including expensive nard oil. Interestingly, Revelation 1:14 even describes the resurrected Christ's hair as like "white wool" or "snow," his cloak was scarlet-colored (red with a bluish tinge--Mt 27:28), and white symbolized purity. True, all that just coincidentally reminds one of Santa Claus, but do note that the earliest Christians enjoyed balanced merriment at "love feasts" (Jude 12), the angels celebrated Christ's birth (Lu 2), and Job's children had enjoyed birthdays (Job 1:3, 3:1, 3).
Most Christmas trees are topped by a star remindful of the Christ star. According to John Mosley's The Christmas Star (1985) from September 3 BC to June 2 BC Jupiter, known as "the royal planet" passed Regulus "the king star" in the constellation Leo, reversed then passed again, turned and passed a 3rd time. By June 17 Jupiter and Regulus were so close they seemed a single star when seen by the eye. This then is one intriguing possible source for the Christ star in the Bible.
Before Christ's birth unspecified men called "magi" in Biblical Greek came from the East first to Jerusalem (Mt 2:1-2) then went on to find the Christ child in Bethlehem. Some translations render the word magi as astrologers because its root like the word "magician" is linked to the idea of being a person of great might but although magi may refer to people who try to predict the future by observing the stars, using omens and consulting spirit beings as forbidden by God at Deuteronomy 18:10-12, it can also refer to people who worked to predict future weather patterns, good times to plant and harvest, buy and sell crops, etc via careful observation of the clouds, stars and other natural phenomena and with very little to absolutely no special focus on the occult at all. So for solid reasons some Bible translations continue to translate magi as simply "wise men" or "stargazers" and this is also supported by the Bible’s positively saying they brought gifts for Christ then also protected him by leaving without telling his location to King Herod who wickedly desired to slay him.
Those who kept their families from celebrating Christmas should not be condemned if they acted out of lack of accurate knowledge in the past but also no one should claim that those who do celebrate the birth of Christ are out of harmony with the Bible even as the preceding information proves. Please read and meditate on what Paul writes at Colossians 2:16. . . . . . . The writers are part of a nonprofit mostly house-and-computer-based fellowship of Christians called Jah Christians, part of the international Free Christians movement which emails the Free Christians Newsletter for free to interested persons in all belief systems. We are seen at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian, or contact jahchristian@yahoo for a free subscription today:
EASTER, WHAT'S THE REAL TRUTH: Previously, and as found in most encyclopedias, most scholars took the view of "the Venerable Bede" who in 8th Century England speculated that the name Easter may have come from the name for the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eastre. But more research research shows several other possibilities. One is that the name more likely came from the Latin for "White Week," that spring week when people wore white to be baptized as Christians. The Latin expression "Hebdonada Alba" (White Week) was misunderstood as the plural for the word dawn and mistranslated into Old High German as Eostarum. Another possibility is that Easter came from the Anglo-Saxon word "eastre" akin to the words easterly or eastern, that is something that came from the East. This is possible because Christianity entered Germany and England in Western Europe from the east, the Middle East. A lesser possibility is that it derived from the Bible's speaking of Christ as someday returning to resurrect people from out of the east. Of course there might also be a combination of possible reasons for the name.
In any event, when Christianity reached Germany in the 1500s the Christians there symbolized the resurrection hope, that is new life, via rabbits and eggs. This was because from eggs clearly come new life, and also because rabbits were well-known for appearing first here and then there which is exactly how Christ did, appearing in first one place then another, after he was resurrected. Some modern persons have attacked the celebration of Easter by promoting in writing their theory that the continuing usage today of Easter rabbits and eggs is a vestige of ancient fertility or sex rituals that pre-dated Christianity, and so this day that is so highly esteemed by those of different beliefs is, they contend, tarred with an immorality that God could not possibly find acceptable. Such criticism from some persons is well-intended because it comes from a lack of full knowledge and such critics having been mistaught, and it is true that some ancient cultures used colored eggs to symbolize different ideas or as part of worship as when, for example, the Chinese, have used eggs dyed red to symbolize good luck.
Therefore let can conclude that those not celebrating Easter from lack of correct knowledge, or who out of honest doubts and sensitivity do so, deserve our respect too but yet we can also feel free to educate them to the real truth about Easter, the rabbits and eggs, even as those who honorably observe the day and its traditions also deserve full respect, which is exactly what Paul counsels at Colossians 2:16. This carries over to other things, for usually those with misinformation the call "the truth" about Easter are also persons taught that Christmas trees and Santa are pagan instead of the real truth which is that the tree began as the tree of paradise used in Medieval church plays and Santa came from Saint Nicholas who was a Medieval gift-giver also in Medieval times. Visit our nonprofit Jah Christians egroup at the following to request more free Bible information: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian, or contact: jahchristian at yahoo.com
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anewperson
WHY THANKSGIVING IS INTERNATIONAL AND HAS BIBLE ROOTS:
Not only the United States but Canada, Puerto Rico Liberia, the
Phillipines Guam and Korea celebrate Thanksgiving although Canada
does so in October instead of November. During Germany's Harvest
Thanks Day many churches put colorful crop displays before an altar
then later give the food to the poor, and people hold parades, dance, sing and celebrate and this has gone on since when Christianity first came to Germany. The custom for the United States only began in 1621, the custom spread to many colonies, the President of the United States of America George Washington declared it a holiday for all the USA in 1789 after which it waned until President Abraham Lincoln revived it.In the Bible Thanksgiving was called names such as the Festival of
Ingathering and the Festival of Booths. (Le 23:34-43, Nu 29:12-38,
De 16:13-15, a joyful time to thank God for blessing crops. The
Israelites used tree boughs or fronds to make temporary dwellings
(booths) near Jerusalem for 8 days of Tishri, the Jewish month
corresponding to September-October. Displays of crops like fruits,
remindful of modern cornucopia displays, added color and gaity while
religious ceremonies included livestock and grain offerings. Hallel
songs were sung from which comes the expression Hallelujah. Hallel
is Hebrew for Praise and Jah is the informal tender form of God's
name, the only form appearing in both New and Old Testament
sections.And so the Israelites also called Thanksgiving the Festival of Jah.
(Le 23:34-43) Water from the Pool of Siloam as well as wine were
poured into basins that led to Jerusalem's Temple altar while the
Hallel songs at Psalm 113-118 were sang, and lamps and torches lit
the night. Christ as a Jew also celebrated the Thanksgiving
festival of Jah, and he called himself Living Water as well as The
Light of the World, and he had a blind man wash in the Pool of
Siloam to regain his eyesight. (Jn 7:37-8, 8:12, 9:1-7)Therefore we can see that Thanksgiving is not only international
today but it also has a basis in both earliest Judaism and
Christianity. -
anewperson
WHY THE TRUE STORY OF SANTA CLAUS IS N-O-T PAGAN though it sounds like a romantic made-up myth and yet is historically documented, here condensed for easy reading from an article by Austin Miles, a highly reputable chaplain, writer and historian in Northern California which was on crosswalk.com on December 20, 2001. Miles was also a writer-researcher and technical consultant for the CBS award-winning rseries Ancient Secrets of The Bible.
To begin, about 200 AD some elders met at a little church in Myra, Turkey was to decide on their next bishop and, being uncertain whom this should be, they began praying, while out at sea a ship's crew battled a storm then in desperation shouted for Nicholas, a known man of God with a long white beard, to pray for them. He did, the storm calmed down, and the ship drifted into Myra's harbor. The church elders had quit their praying, feeling sure God wanted them to appoint the first man named Nicholas entering the church to pray within the hour. When Nicholas entered they gave him a long red robe and cane or miter, and he soon became known as The Bishop of Miracles because of many spectacular answers to his prayers.
Although from a wealthy family Nicholas gave away most of his own money but was also sometimes given donations of gold coins which he wanted to put to the best use. Girls back then who did not have a dowry to get married were sold into slavery which included prostitution. To combat this on December 6th at dark Nicholas wrapped gold coins in some little bags and visited homes with a daughter who had no dowry, dropping a bag through the windows so that it landed on the hearth where the girl's clothing was drying. The next morning each family was delighted that their daughter would not have to become a slave although nobody knew who the mysterious gift-giver had been. One night a bag fell into a stocking that was drying before a fireplace instead of on the hearth, giving rise to the custom came of using stockings to hold some Christmas gifts.
Shortly before Nicholas's death on a December 6th, people learned he was the gift-giver who had brought such great joy to so many families, and om the 9th Century, the Roman Catholic Church declared him a saint, that is Saint Nicholas. His story spread, and French nuns in the 12th Century also started going out at night each year to give fruit and nuts to poor families with children on December 5 the day before Nicholas' day so that it was called St Nicholas Eve. The tradition spread to the Americas where some people still celebrate on December 6th. Luther believed the true Christmas message about Jesus Christ was diminished by the St Nicholas connection, and the Dutch-German Protestant Reform Movement sought to highlight Christ more, using the German word for Christ and child which is Christkindl from which comes Kris Kringle.
The night before Christmas on 1822, Clement Moore, the son of the Episcopal bishop of New York, and himself a theology professor, wrote the poem The Night Before Christmas for his children, which was published 1823 in the Sentinel of Troy, New York. Moore used the name Santa Claus, likely from Dutch Sinter (Saint) and Klass which is short for Nicholas. Dutch knowing little English but aware gold had been found on the fireplace hearth in Nicholas' time started the legend that the original Santa Claus had come down the chimney, landing in the cinders, and called him Cinder Klaussen. Moore's poem popularized Santa famous, he named the reindeer, and made them fly perhaps because poet Washington Irving wrote a book in 1809 about a Dutch Colonist's dream in which St Nick rode above trees in a wagon bearing gifts.
Harper's Weekly cartoonist Thomas Nash depicted Santa as plump, jolly and dressed in the red that robes worn by St Nicholas had actually used. Haddon Sundblom drew the most famous picture of Santa which was for the soft drink company Coca Cola, and the elves came from Ireland's leprechauns....... Perhaps these documented facts will surprise some readers, since from about 1920 to 2001 so much misinformation was left about by some religionists in magazines on the alleged pagan origins of Santa Claus, some even claiming he derived from wizards in the far north of Russia or an ancient god who came down chimneys in the Orient, thus needlessly denying themselves and others much joy since the true story of St Nicholas is wholly Christian - the only main exceptions being the reindeer and elves. So, ho-ho-ho and a merry Christmas to all!