Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

by JosephAlward 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    In defense of the inerrancy of the Bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

    Let's consider the case of the gospel called "Mark." The writer of those Jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with Jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill Scripture?

    Defenders of the Bible can read Mark from front to back, and they will find no evidence that the writer was actually there to witness the events he described, and hear the words of Jesus. On the other hand, there is evidence that he was not there. Consider, just for one example, the agonizing prayer of Jesus at Gethsemane:

    They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch." Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. (Mark 14:32-37)
    Jesus only took Peter, James, and John with him; there is no mention of anyone named "Mark." Furthermore, the writer makes it clear that Jesus was alone when he prayed. How did anyone know what Jesus said, let alone Mark, who was not with Jesus at that time?

    There is additional evidence that Mark made up this story. It can be found in the article at http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/David_and_Jesus.htm

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    I guess God is SOOoooo powerful and whizzer kewl in his communicating to men, that He must have given Mark the info Himself.

    Either God did it or Mark is lying like you said.

    I'll go with the former, because the Father in heaven was a WITNESS to Jesus.

    John 8:17-18
    18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

  • RWC
    RWC

    It is settled that Mark was John Mark the son of Mary ( not Jesus' Mary but another one). He was the cousin of Barnabas and a follower of Peter the apostle. He followed Paul on his missionary journey. he received the information for the Gospel from Peter. It was written sometime between A.D. 67 and 70.

    Matthew was clearly an eyewitness. As was John.

    Luke was a close friend and companian of Paul. He followed the early church and wrote Acts as well as his Gospel. It is dated around A.D.60

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    This has been discussed before here and one thing I learned that was very interesting to me is that it seems none of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses, and that we probably haven't a clue what the historical Jesus actually said or did. We only have the words of later followers and the stories they told about Jesus.

    It's been a long time since I've read this, so I can't point to the threads that discussed this, but I did a quick web search on the subject and found two interesting articles:

    http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/gosp1.htm
    - http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:dh8K4BnZxwUC:www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html+gospel+eyewitness&hl=en

    (I used the Google cache for the second link since I couldn't get it to come up)

    I realize the true believers won't accept this idea no matter what, so if you want to believe God magically fixed things, go ahead.

  • Bang
    Bang

    Scripture and man's facts are not one in the same.
    I don't think Moses was with Adam & Eve either.
    The 'errors' are in the use of the book.

    Bang

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    Scripture and man's facts are not one in the same.

    Except that men wrote the scriptures.

    I don't think Moses was with Adam & Eve either.
    Could explain why he got the order of creation wrong.
  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    If the infinitely wise and all-knowing god of the Bible exists, then that god obviously would have been smart enough to know that Bible readers would understand that Jesus was completely alone as he prayed at Gethsemane, so no one could have overhead his prayer.

    Thus, God would know that readers would conclude that Mark's story was at least part fiction. Now, if the words in Mark are from God, then we may presume that God did not want readers to think Mark just made them up, so God would have instructed Mark to explain to his readers that God told him what words Jesus used in his prayer. Since Mark did not do this, we may conclude that God did not help Mark write his gospel.

    If God didn't tell him, then how did Mark decide what words to have Jesus say in his prayer? The answer to this question is found in the accounts of the life of King David, who was said to be the spiritual ancestor of the coming savior. Mark believed that some of the events in the life of David were foreshadowings of events in the life of the coming savior, so Mark made sure that Jesus' life mirrored in part the life of David. Thus, when Mark read David's lament about an enemies at his supper table,

    You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. (Psalm 23:5)
    he made sure that Jesus likewise had an enemy sit at his last supper:

    When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me (Mark 14:17-20)
    The parallel Mark constructed between David and Jesus doesn't end there. Mark also saw in the Scriptures that David was betrayed by someone close to him, someone who dipped his bread in the bowl with David:

    David's counselor…is among the conspirators… (2 Samuel 15:12, 31)…. Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." (Psalm 41:9)


    Since Mark felt sure that it was preordained that someone close to Jesus-- someone who shared bread with Jesus--would conspire against him, he made sure it happened:

    "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me…one who dips bread into the bowl with me." (Mark 14:17-20)
    After learning of his betrayal by his counselor, David goes to the Mount of Olives and expresses his feeling that God's will for him will be done:

    "let him [God] do to me whatever seems good to him." (2 Samuel 15:25-26)… David continued up the Mount of Olives (2 Samuel 15:30)

    Mark wanted the same thing to happen to Jesus. After Mark has Jesus speak of his betrayal, Mark sends Jesus to Mt. of Olives to pray, just as did David after his betrayal:

    they went out to the Mount of Olives. (Mark 14:26)…[and Jesus told God,] "Yet [do] not what I will, but what you will." (14:36)
    Thus, nobody heard Jesus' prayer--if there was a prayer, and God did not tell Mark what Jesus said in the prayer. What actually happened, the evidence shows, is that Mark just assumed that the events following David's betrayal would have to be echoed a thousand years later in the life of Jesus. Following the betrayal by a friend that Mark manufactured for Jesus, Mark had Jesus travel up to the Mount of Olives, just as David did, and express the view that God would do with him what it was God's will to do, just as did David.

    The words of Jesus' Gethsemane prayer were put there by Mark, and are complete fiction.

    There are many more parallels between David's and Jesus' betrayals that Mark included in his narrative, but I'll leave those for interested readers to pursue. These parallels are described in considerable detail in the article, "David and Jesus," on the web page in the signature below.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • accuracy
    accuracy

    Joe, are you not engaging in the exercise of the fundamentalists, in claiming for a certainty what you cannot possibly know? I don't know if Mark was an eyewitness or not, but I am pretty sure that you were not. So you can only speculate about Mark and the other Gospel writers.

    You choose to not accept Marks' "speculation." I choose to not accept yours. Fair enough?

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman
    What actually happened, the evidence shows


    What evidence? Your word or anothers?

    There is much we don't know about the so called Gospels, but certainly it is not necessary to add more supposition than what is already there!

    IW

  • Faithful2Jah
    Faithful2Jah

    I've gotta agree with Accuracy here.

    Joe says: "Jesus was completely alone as he prayed ... no one could have overhead his prayer."

    Yet Joe says: "Mark believed ... Mark made sure ... Mark felt sure ... Mark wanted ... Mark manufactured ... The words of Jesus' Gethsemane prayer were put there by Mark, and are complete fiction."

    Joe says Mark could not have known what Jesus was praying, but Joe says he knows everything that Mark was thinking. What a hypocrite! Find a new hobby Joe. As a Bible critic you stink.

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