2 Thessalonians issue

by Mat 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  PSacramento

  P.Sac accuses me of making a silly and mean spirited remark when I said today's christians have a faith based on nothing tangible.

  I also wanted to add that ninjas have been dispatched to shrink all your underwear.

  I did not use the word tangible lightly, it means something you can touch, in other words I meant solid evidence that would stand up even in a court of law, I was not being mean spirited, just stating a fact.

  Evidence and proof are two different things, but if you mean that there has to be soemthing we can TOUCH to base our faith on, then I would argue that TANGIABLE thing is the bible.

  Not silly either, they have no tangible ,evidence based faith. It is purely emotion and expriences they believe they have had, nothing real.

  Hardly, and for those of us that base our faith on reason, rational and much study, very insulting.

  But I respect your opinion and can see how one could think that.
• 

  PSacramento

  Like most of Ehrman's allegations/suggestions, he runs very short on evidence. So without evidence, why would you suggest Paul would do such a thing? Are you're trying to suggest Paul is acting like a JW simply because the WT lies to it's people?

  Working with textual criticisim one can possibly see where Bart may have a point that not ALL of the epistles were written by Paul, but that doesn't mean that are not OF Paul, as has been stated by other scholars, Paul dictated as much as he wrote personally.

  Sure there are parts in soem of the epistles that don't mesh with the consitency of Paul and it is right to discuss them, but that is far from making a statement of absolute fact about authorship.
• 

  wobble

  I don't see that authorship is a huge problem, did Mark, or Matthew write the gospels that bear their names ? we cannot know for sure.

  It does not make the writing an absolute fake or fraud just because the title attribution is not that of the real writer, this was a common device of the day.

  I do wonder if some of the writings said to be Pauls are really his, but it doesn't matter that much. It just means that some people who object to Paul on say the attiude "he" has to slaves or women, may be objecting to the writings of someone else.

  If you read those writings anyway as they should be read, they are not objectionable, they only become so if you try to say the modern christian fellowship should follow the same dictats today.

  Paul , if Acts is to be believed, was deeply loved by those from Ephesus , that does not sound like the kind of person some make him out to be.

  It all comes down to how you view the Bible, if you are someone who is a Christian who uses study ,along with the power of reason, to understand the Bible, nothing thet Bart Erhman or anyone says as to authorship is a problem.

  (P.Sac Why have my shorts gone tight ? Squeeeeeek !)
• 

  Mat

  Hi Deputy Dog,

  So without evidence, why would you suggest Paul would do such a thing? Are you're trying to suggest Paul is acting like a JW simply because the WT lies to it's people?

  Ehrman actually says "it's hard to believe" that Paul would write what he did in 2 Thessalonians. However, experience has made it rather easy for me to believe that someone could and would write such conflicting teachings as found when comparing 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Face it, Paul wrote:

  16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4- NIV)

  So, to paraphrase- Paul was telling them that the Lord will come in their generation!

  However, the writer of 2 Thessalonians (Whether it was Paul or not) wrote this:

  1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter— asserting that the day of the Lord has already come (( has come -NAS,ES,and others; has already begun- NLT; is at hand- KJ; already here- CEB; is just at hand- ASV; is present- DT; be neigh- Wycliffe, )).3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

  It makes me laugh because it reminds me of this infamous quote from the Watchtower addressing the 1975 issue:

  Watchtower-1976-July-15-p.441

  "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment,but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises."

  So. Do I think that Paul would lie to his congregation? The evidence is this- 1) Both Thessalonian letters have the same writing style, and if one is a fake- it is a very good fake. 2) Religious leaders have and do lie to their congregations especially when rationalising about failed predictions. 3) The only reason scholars hold that 2 Thessalonians is a fake is because of the different message. This tells me that a) 2 Thessalonians is not a fake, and b) that Paul was a liar.
• 

  PSacramento

  Ok, it seems that the issue is one of interpretation, as usual.

  16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4- NIV)

  Who is "we"? Does Paul refer to Him and the Thessalonians or believers that are still alive at the time?

  It seems to me, and mnay others, that Paul wrote the 2nd letter to clear up an obvious misunderstanding that was circulating, perhaps even started by Him by a misunderstanding of what was teaching.

  Since in NO OTHER of his letters do we find Paul saying the end will came in His lifetime we can assume that the confusion was from the Thessolonian's part and it may have been how Paul worded it, as is a prime example of the above.

  The Coming of the Lord

  13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, g about those who have died, h so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. i 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. j 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

  5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, a you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! 4 But you, beloved, b are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So then let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; 7 for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.
• 

  Mat

  Ok Paul supporters, how do you interperate what Paul said in the verse?

  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. NIV

  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, NAS

  Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. The Message

  Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; Amplified Bible

  Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. New Living Translation

  Oh I tire of copying and pasting. See for yoruself the translation comparison here:

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20thess%204:17&version=NLT

  In every case he says "we". He included himself in this description, he got the congregation excited that the Lord's day was soon- just like the Watchtower did last century, and especially in 1975. It's quite clear what he was saying! Interperatation? Piffle! It's less vague that the Watchtower was about 1975!

  So, P Sacramento, who do you think Paul meant when he said "we"? How do you interperate this scripture? (Open to all Paul supporters).
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mat

  Ok Paul supporters, how do you interperate what Paul said in the verse?...

  In every case he says "we". He included himself in this description, he got the congregation excited that the Lord's day was soon- just like the Watchtower did last century, and especially in 1975. It's quite clear what he was saying! Interperatation? Piffle! It's less vague that the Watchtower was about 1975!

  Wow!!! You get all of that because Paul included himself among the living? You've got to give him an out here somewhere.

  Would you have him include himself among the dead (even though he was alive at the time) to make this MORE believible?

  These passages speaks about the "blessed hope" of all believers, at any time in church history. They are meant to encourage every generation to believe they could be the ones to see Christ's return, no matter what evil or suffering they're facing.
• 

  Mat

  Deputy Dog, you still haven't explained your interperatation. Why would I include him among the dead? At the risk of repeating myself let me point out- he said "we the living..."

  Let me make it slightly clearer. He said- "we the living..."

  Perhaps a bit clearer- He said "we" as is us, you and me.

  How on earth does that not include Paul who wrote it?
• 

  Mat

  Wobble, if the books/letters in the bible are not written by who they claim that makes the claim lies. If the bible is full of lies then it is not a book worth putting your faith in, yet millions all over the world put faith in it and it affects laws, politics, even the decision to go to war. It influences who nations fund and support. It affects human rights.

  Would you prefer your ruler to base decisions on truth or lies? I know which I'd chose.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mat

  Deputy Dog, you still haven't explained your interperatation. Why would I include him among the dead? At the risk of repeating myself let me point out- he said "we the living..."

  There is nothing to explain.

  He was alive when he wrote it. He didn't know the day or the hour of Christ's return. He did not know who would be alive or dead including himself.