Compare and contrast JW "forgiveness" with Judaism and Christianity

by Terry 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  tec

  It is a slippery slope, I agree, showing that most haven't understood to teach properly. (not saying that I'm any different)

  But grace is a gift, and God will have mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy. Yet it would seem to me that you can lose that gift by acting without mercy, yourself.

  I don't believe Christ ever said as long as you believe in me, you can go ahead and do whatever you want. Kill, rape, beat my servants, taunt, steal, etc. But at a time when we WERE doing all those things, God still sent His Son to show us the Way, and to be a mediator for us, and to make amends for us. So that we could look to Him, and be saved. That was His gift to us, as I understand things. We didn't do anything to deserve that gift. But now that we have this gift, it is up to us whether we abuse it, toss it away, or embrace it.

  Tammy
• 

  Terry

  Tammy telleth thus:

  I don't believe Christ ever said as long as you believe in me, you can go ahead and do whatever you want. Kill, rape, beat my servants, taunt, steal, etc. But at a time when we WERE doing all those things, God still sent His Son to show us the Way, and to be a mediator for us, and to make amends for us. So that we could look to Him, and be saved. That was His gift to us, as I understand things.

  ON WHAT BASIS can God suddenly love mankind when man is without merit in God's eyes?
  
  Even humans need a basis on which to act when making friends, making enemies, falling in love, hating. There are reasons.
  
  God throughout history gave endless descriptions of the worthlessness of humanity ("what is mortal man that you keep him in mind?).
  
  What sane person would value what is worthless?
  
  A perfect God with perfect standards who has enumerated lists of obsessive compulsive behaviors which must be performed perfectly by people in order to have a basis for ritual forgiveness COULD NOT POSSIBLY act without basis, reason or principle.
  
  JUSTICE cannot be abandoned by the inventor of perfect law.
  
  JUSTICE requires each living thing get what it deserves (and not get what it doesn't.) Or else--there is no basis at all for JUSTICE itself.
  
  It becomes a sham, a whim of capriciousness.
  
  This would not be the actions of the highest being imaginable.
  Christian Justice convicts the innocent.
  
  Christian Justice lets the guilty go free.
  
  God approves.
  
  God is a god of Justice.
  
  What is wrong with this picture?
  
  I'll tell you: IT MAKES NO SENSE!
  
  I repeat yet again..
  
  On what basis can God be said to LOVE man (John 3:16) so much that he would miscarry justice for him and create a kangaroo court that perverts innocence and guilt???
  
  You can build a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT and call it a reason.
• 

  tec

  ON WHAT BASIS can God suddenly love mankind when man is without merit in God's eyes?

  Who says God thinks man is without merit? He didn't think Abraham was without merit. Or Job. If he thought man was worthless then why would he even bother to try and help us, teach us, save us? Why would he send his son, whom he loved?

  God throughout history gave endless descriptions of the worthlessness of humanity ("what is mortal man that you keep him in mind?).

  That was a person who said that right, asking God what is so great about us that you keep us in mind and bother to care? Kind of showing that he does care...

  I don't see how Christian justice convicts the innocent. You'll have to elaborate. As for letting the guilty go free... we're all guilty of something or other at various points in our lives - sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes with eyes wide open. Repenting and asking forgiveness is something we are granted on the basis of mercy, right? If you love your children, you want to bring them to their full potential, and when they mess up, because you love them, you want to teach them to do better. Often even before they repent, you have forgiven them.

  Tammy
• 

  Terry

  Tammy, haven't you ever sun Amazing Grace?

  Look up the word "wretch".
• 

  Robdar

  In Judaism, forgiveness from God is also sought. Jews celebrate Yom Kippur, which is the day of atonement

  Botch this is partially true. Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year which begins the 10 Days of Awe in which we ask forgiveness and seek reconciliation with the people we have sinned against.

  The 10 Days of Awe culminates in Yom Kippur, the day we ask God for forgiveness for the sins we have committed against him. We also ask for his release from any vows we made to him the previous year and did not keep.

  However, and this is the point that Terry is making, we are not forgiven by God for the sins we have committed against each other. Only the person we have sinned against can grant forgiveness, God isn't going to do it for us. It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to go to the person you have wronged, admit your sin and ask for forgiveness. BTW, if the person you ask forgiveness from doesn't feel you are sincere, he doesn't have to grant the forgiveness you seek.
• 

  Terry

  However, and this is the point that Terry is making, we are not forgiven by God for the sins we have committed against each other. Only the person we have sinned against can grant forgiveness, God isn't going to do it for us. It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to go to the person you have wronged, admit your sin and ask for forgiveness. BTW, if the person you ask forgiveness from doesn't feel you are sincere, he doesn't have to grant the forgiveness you seek.

  Bingo!