Are these problems for evolution?

by sleepy 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Maybe not.
    Anyway here are some problems I see with the current theory of evolution as a complete explanation of how life got to the state it is in on Earth.
    Of course I no expert (as some will no doubt point out )and am not fully up to date with every idea so please let me know were I have gone wrong.
    Also I am not saying that evolution is or isn’t true or fully responsible for life, just that there are end s that haven't been tied up yet the results of which could lead us in another direction. I defiantly not saying that this proves there must be a God or anything like that. Just trying to understand what is known and what is not.
    (Please don’t laugh if I have said something stupid it just my naivety on the subject)

    Problem 1. Mutation of the genetic code is the sole source of change between one generation and the next. That parents can have offspring that are slightly different to them is well attested. Even gross deformation can occur. But in order for beneficial mutations to cause change in species it has to be passed on so many common types of mutations cannot be responsible for evolutionary change .Only mutations within the sperm or egg and these have to passed on and remain fixed for a time in future generations. This lessens the type and amount of mutation that can account for evolutionary change. Also the mutation needs a source. we have to know what the source of the mutation is I.e. radiation from Sun to know whether it has been the same in the past.

    Problem 2 .Natural selection is the only driving force behind evolutionary progression. That means that all changes that have been held on to by humans or other animals are entirely the result of natural circumstances causing the complete death of all other similar types of creatures that have differences in its DNA . So that even complex organs such as the brain are the result of lesser humans becoming extinct and the surviving creature differences granting it life. This has to explain the smallest to the largest changes from single cells to complex organisms. Yet we can not know that all the environments required to account for all changes in all organisms ever to live ever existed. They are needed to explain the driving mechanism but are immeasurable by us today.

    Problem 3. Lack of a complete fossil records showing the gradual change in animals over history .The fossil record is either mostly incomplete or not. If evolution in its current form is solely responsible then the fossil record is incomplete due to the rarity of circumstances needed to fossilize animals. If evolution is not completely responsible in its current form the part of evidence for this may be the lack of fossils able to show this in the geological record.

  • JanH
    JanH

    sleepy,

    Problem 1. Mutation of the genetic code is the sole source of change between one generation and the next.

    No it isn't. Recombination is also a major source. But, yes, mutations are the most important source of evolutionary change.

    That parents can have offspring that are slightly different to them is well attested. Even gross deformation can occur. But in order for beneficial mutations to cause change in species it has to be passed on so many common types of mutations cannot be responsible for evolutionary change .Only mutations within the sperm or egg and these have to passed on and remain fixed for a time in future generations. This lessens the type and amount of mutation that can account for evolutionary change. Also the mutation needs a source. we have to know what the source of the mutation is I.e. radiation from Sun to know whether it has been the same in the past.

    It is true that if a cell mutates within your body, and it's not a sex cell, then that mutation is not passed on to your offspring. The only mutations really relevant for evolution is, naturally, those who are passed on to future generations. Such mutations are rare for every loci, but since we have many loci and a huge population, evolution still has lots of mutation material to work on. It is estimated that around 8 billion mutations exist in humanity for our generation. If there was selective pressure for only one of those mutations, we would see that natural selection made that gene propagate in the gene pool over the next successive generations.

    One documented and observed example is the development of resistance to pesticides in some instects. This spraying is a serious selective pressure for populations of insects that want to feed on our agricultural industry. It is also known that mutation in a single loci is sufficient to make those insects develop more of an encyme that makes them resistant to specific pesticides. That is evolution at work, to the chargrin of many farmers.

    Problem 2 .Natural selection is the only driving force behind evolutionary progression.
    Again, it is not the only one (there is e.g. genetic drift), but it is the most important, yes.
    That means that all changes that have been held on to by humans or other animals are entirely the result of natural circumstances causing the complete death of all other similar types of creatures that have differences in its DNA . So that even complex organs such as the brain are the result of lesser humans becoming extinct and the surviving creature differences granting it life. This has to explain the smallest to the largest changes from single cells to complex organisms. Yet we can not know that all the environments required to account for all changes in all organisms ever to live ever existed. They are needed to explain the driving mechanism but are immeasurable by us today.
    I am not really sure what you are saying here. Evolutionary pressure makes some genes die and others thrive in the gene pool. When there was a prsssure for larger/better brains (e.g. for some reason only the brainiest homonids survived and brought their genes on) this caused an increase in the average brain size/capacity in the population over generations.

    Sometimes two species start to compete in the same environment, struggling for the same niche. It is an axiom in evolutionary theory that one of them will perish. The marsupials that lived in South America is a good example (but their relatives in Australia were protected from better competitors). Other species disappear because of environment changes (ice ages work wonders here) or because a predator gets the upper hand in the arms race.

    Yes, surely it is a problem that we don't know everything about every organism ever living and the ecosystem they lived in. But we can't expect historical records over millions of years to be complete. Many things we will never know.

    To argue that this makes evolution doubtful is equivalent to arguing that the Roman empire never existed since there are many things we do not know and will never know about the Roman empire.

    Problem 3. Lack of a complete fossil records showing the gradual change in animals over history .The fossil record is either mostly incomplete or not. If evolution in its current form is solely responsible then the fossil record is incomplete due to the rarity of circumstances needed to fossilize animals. If evolution is not completely responsible in its current form the part of evidence for this may be the lack of fossils able to show this in the geological record.
    Fossilation is rare. When you and I die, the chance of us leaving a fossil print somewhere is zilch. Organisms with only soft parts very very rarely leave fossils (but it has happened). Organisms with hard parts living in the ocean, on the other hand, leave many fossils. On land, we know that the fossil record for birds is pretty poor, simply because birds live and die in places where they are unlikely to be fossilized. For other vertebrates, the record is often very good. For example, we know a lot about how reptiles evolved into mammals, since this transition is documented very carefully in the fossil record. Also, dinosaurs are well known too, partly because they left lots of fossils and partly because boys who tend to become paleontologists are very fascinated by them. For hominids, which tend to bury their dead, the fossil record is poorer, but since paleontologists have been working very hard on this topic (dear to heart for us, of course) we actually have a very good knowledge of how we evolved. It also helped us that a number of our ancestors had bad luck and ended up being killed in the Afar region in Ethiopia, where they were preserved.

    - Jan
    --
    - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    JanH

    Thanks for your well informed reply.
    One point though.I said
    "Yet we can not know that all the environments required to account for all changes in all organisms ever to live ever existed"
    Surely we cannot have evolution without the selection.
    We know that some tpyes of enviroment could drive certain evolutionary changes.
    Yet we can not or do not know what types of enviromental situations are needed in order to cause the vast complexity we see in creatures today , yet alone know whether they actually happened.This is not just a side issue but a major point.The brain for example is extremely complex yet all of it parts need to be accounted for by an eviromental selctive prossess.If that selective process cannot be shown to be anything more than a conceptional idea can we say it really happened this way?

    "To argue that this makes evolution doubtful is equivalent to arguing that the Roman empire never existed since there are many things we do not know and will never know about the Roman empire. "
    I wouldn't sat that is quite right.
    I'm not saying that there is no such thing as natural selection just that we do not know the extant it can work at.
    This is like saying I know the Romans existed but due to incomplete records we can not know whether they did this or did that.

    All in the interset of a good debate.

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    i thought these were pretty good questions. i should like to point out something else re point 3. certainly no one would expect a complete fossil record, for the number of fossils of everything ever living would not fit comfortably on the entire earth's surface! however, a more relevant issue is whether we have a representative fossil record--whether we have a fairly random and distributed sampling of organisms from different time periods and locations or whether it is instead bunched up. if it was the former, we could naturally draw better conclusions from the record. if it was the latter, which evidence indicates it is, then the record has natural gaps introduced into it and makes a paleontologists work more difficult. certain areas at certain eras under certain climates are more conducive to fossilization than others and we therefore have a very spotty record, even with the little we have. for example, there is almost no hominid fossil record in africa during a window of 1.5 million to .5 million years ago, but plenty from earlier. its unfortunate, but it can only improve over time. the last 15 years alone have seen a mushrooming in the availability of fossils to the world.

    mox

    (edit - added decimal points in dates - big difference)

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Well, I am a simple person with simple ideas. Why is it there are no interspecies? Why are there today no chimpanzees that are in various stages of evolving into humans? Why are there no sea creatures with rudimentary legs and lungs, attempting to venture onto land?

    If evolution were true it seems to me we should have partial humans still evolving, pre-humans who have evolved enough to stand erect, speak and have the ability to make rudimentary tools but are less human than the rest of mankind.

    Why have the transitory species disappeared? Natural selection does not answer the question because every change was due to some advantage yet the previous species which really should have been wiped out because of some weakness was not wiped out, but the newly changed transitory creature which supposedly changed to adapt WAS wiped out!

    IW

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Here is an interesting statement:

    “”“The Theory of Organic Evolution Is Invalid.
    Organic Evolution Has Never Been Observed. “”

    Wow, that statement seems very true........

    "" The Law of Biogenesis
    Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the law of biogenesis. The theory of evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes.a
    1. The Law of Biogenesis
    a . And yet, leading evolutionists are forced to accept some form of spontaneous generation. For example, a former Harvard University professor and Nobel Prize winner in physiology and medicine acknowledged the dilemma.
    The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position. George Wald, ““The Origin of Life,”” Scientific American, Vol. 190, August 1954, p. 46.
    With no rationale given, Wald goes on to accept the impossible odds of spontaneous generation rather than creation.
    One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are——as a result, I believe, of spontaneous generation. Ibid.
    ““The beginning of the evolutionary process raises a question which is as yet unanswerable. What was the origin of life on this planet? Until fairly recent times there was a pretty general belief in the occurrence of ‘‘spontaneous generation.’’ It was supposed that lowly forms of life developed spontaneously from, for example, putrefying meat. But careful experiments, notably those of Pasteur, showed that this conclusion was due to imperfect observation, and it became an accepted doctrine [the law of biogenesis] that life never arises except from life. So far as actual evidence goes, this is still the only possible conclusion. But since it is a conclusion that seems to lead back to some supernatural creative act, it is a conclusion that scientific men find very difficult of acceptance. It carries with it what are felt to be, in the present mental climate, undesirable philosophic implications, and it is opposed to the scientific desire for continuity. It introduces an unaccountable break in the chain of causation, and therefore cannot be admitted as part of science unless it is quite impossible to reject it. For that reason most scientific men prefer to believe that life arose, in some way not yet understood, from inorganic matter in accordance with the laws of physics and chemistry.”” J. W. N. Sullivan, The Limitations of Science (New York: The Viking Press, Inc., 1933), p. 94. """

    “We all fell down from the milky way, hanging around here for the judgement day, heaven only knows who’s in command.”- Jimmy Buffet

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    ""Bounded Variations
    While Mendel’’s laws give a theoretical explanation why variations are limited, there is broad experimental verification as well. For example, if evolution happened, organisms (such as bacteria) that quickly produce the most offspring, should have the most variations and mutations. Natural selection would then select the more favorable changes, allowing organisms with those traits to survive, reproduce, and pass on their beneficial genes. Organisms that have allegedly evolved the most should have traits that allowed them to progress the furthest; namely, short reproduction cycles and many offspring. We see the opposite. In general, more complex organisms, such as humans, have fewer offspring and longer reproduction cycles.a Again, variations within existing organisms appear to be bounded.
    a . ““The awesome morphological complexity of organisms such as vertebrates that have far fewer individuals on which selection can act therefore remains somewhat puzzling (for me at least), despite the geological time scales available ...”” Peter R. Sheldon, ““Complexity Still Running,”” Nature, Vol. 350, 14 March 1991, p. 104. """

    “We all fell down from the milky way, hanging around here for the judgement day, heaven only knows who’s in command.”- Jimmy Buffet

  • rem
    rem

    IW,

    Your questions are extremely basic and show a complete misunderstanding of evolution. I suggest reading a good book so you can put your misconceptions to rest.

    Why is it there are no interspecies?
    What? Species is an arbitrary label made up by humans. We are all 'interspecies' in a manner of speaking (at least populations are)because life continues to evolve. Remember: Evolution works on populations NOT individuals.

    Why are there today no chimpanzees that are in various stages of evolving into humans? Why are there today no chimpanzees that are in various stages of evolving into humans?
    Do you think we came from modern apes? You have a gross misconception of Evolution. Chimpanzees are fine for their environment niche. They don't have any pressure to become human (whatever that means). They have other qualities that are superior to humans, such as their strength. Chimpanzees are still evolving, though, but for a Chimpanzee to evolve into a human is probably as likely as a Chimpanzee evolving into a fish.

    Why are there no sea creatures with rudimentary legs and lungs, attempting to venture onto land?
    Are you sure there are none? Ever heard of amphibians? Lung fish? In fact, we know that sea creatures did venture onto land and then some actually went back again to the sea (e.g. whales, dolphins, etc.)

    If evolution were true it seems to me we should have partial humans still evolving, pre-humans who have evolved enough to stand erect, speak and have the ability to make rudimentary tools but are less human than the rest of mankind.
    What advantage would a less advanced human have over an advanced one? Do you realize that 99% of all species that have ever lived have gone extinct? Extinction is no a rare event. That's the way evolution works. Populations either evolve to exploit their environmental niche or they die out. That is what we find in the fossil record and that is why you don't still see primitive pre-humans. They couldn't compete.

    In Fact, not too long ago Neandertals and Cro Magnum man lived together for a while, but the Neandertals could not compete, so they died out. When two species are competing in the environmental niche, then one will always win out since one will almost always have an advantage over the other. The less advantaged species will eventually die out.

    Why have the transitory species disappeared?
    See extinction above.

    Natural selection does not answer the question because every change was due to some advantage yet the previous species which really should have been wiped out because of some weakness was not wiped out, but the newly changed transitory creature which supposedly changed to adapt WAS wiped out!
    Yes it does. Evolution is not a linear succession of species. It is a bush - a family like you and your uncles and cousins. Species can split due to environmental pressures or isolation. It does not necessarily follow that the root species will go extinct right away, though the root species will also continue to evolve, so in a sense it will go extinct after a while, in a manner of speaking.

    I suggest you read some introductory works on Evolution so you can work out some of your glaring misconceptions. Richard Dawkins has some good books for Evolutionary newbies.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • JanH
    JanH

    sleepy,

    Evolutionary science works by explaining the evolution of organisms and their traits by proposing "darwinian histories" and testing these against known facts: the fossil record, dating, the evidence from the genes, geologicial history, etc, etc. For some things, it is natural that our evidence is lacking. For example, we know relatively little about how the first multicelled organisms developed. It is a billion years ago or so, so it should not surprise us.

    To really say whether a particular darwinian history is convincing, we will have to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. You'd then have to read through the research results published in scientific journals and evaluate the specific evidence put forth, and propose or conduct further studies to confirm or rebut it. This is essentially what scientists do for a living.

    There have been millions of different organisms on this planet, 99.9% of which are today extinct. We are totally ignorant about many of them, as we have found no fossil evidence for them. This is the sad reality of things, and scientists have to work with what we have.

    I know there are lots of research material available on how exactly the brain developed. I have read very, very little of it. I don't think it is realistic to expect convincing darwinian histories for every feature of our brains to exist now. There should be work for countless generations of scientists to put the nuts and bolts together. The picture we have, however, is very consistent with what we know about how brain capacity evolved from the (more or less) chimp-like brain of the early australopithecene to our much more advanced brain.

    I don't really see a problem if creating a convincing darwinian history for how increased brain capacity gave a specific survival advantage over more "primitive" individuals. We know all humans living today came from a very small stock of ancestors living some hundred thousand years ago. This population was under intense evolutionary pressure. The capacity for tool-making and complex social interaction was obviously necessary for survival, and both require advanced brains.

    It is also feasible that our brain size has developed partially through sexual selection. If at one time e.g. certain females were attracted to the most intelligent males, then two characteristics would be likely to develop from their offspring: 1) tendency to be intelligent; and 2) tendency to be attracted to intelliegence. This starts a self-reinforcing, runaway feedback process which may very well explain intelligence way beyond what the environment demands. I don't know to what degree sexual selection gave us intelligence, but it is pretty obvious that it gave our women larger breasts than are necessary for breastfeeding. It certainly gave male peacocks a ridiculously large and beautiful tail, one that is no advantage for it apart from attracting females.

    IW,

    Why is it there are no interspecies? Why are there today no chimpanzees that are in various stages of evolving into humans? Why are there no sea creatures with rudimentary legs and lungs, attempting to venture onto land?
    Rudimentary, as in non-functional, organs can only exist after it has been useful for a species, not before. The appendix we have, and that causes us so many problems, is a rudiment of an organ that was useful and necessary for some of our ancestors. Likewise, we still have a rudimentary tail, because a real tail provided our ancestors with a survival advantage.

    Evolution is extremely near-sighted and cannot make any organ that is not immediately useful for the organism. So the answer is that all species are at least potentially intermediate forms for something. But all species are also species in themselves, fit for the environment where they evolved.

    If evolution were true it seems to me we should have partial humans still evolving, pre-humans who have evolved enough to stand erect, speak and have the ability to make rudimentary tools but are less human than the rest of mankind.
    Evolution states the exact opposite: ancestor species went extinct because they were outcompeted by the later forms.
    Why have the transitory species disappeared? Natural selection does not answer the question because every change was due to some advantage yet the previous species which really should have been wiped out because of some weakness was not wiped out, but the newly changed transitory creature which supposedly changed to adapt WAS wiped out!
    Natural selection is the answer. The ancestor species was outcompeted and went extinct. But species have evolved in different directions, each taking advantage of different niches (or geographical locations).

    E.g. if a sub-species gradually leaves forested areas and start living in the open land, we should expect "rapid" evolution. Limbs for climbing are no longer useful, while running fast is very essential. The ancestor species of the new, specialised fast-running species will still remain in the forest and be fit in that enviroment. If the forest-dweller came out in the open, he would be unable to compete with the new species. Likewise, if the savannah-dweller tried to move back into the forest, he would likely fail.

    IW, you seem to be very interested in evolutionary theory. There are lots of good web sites explaining evolution very well, e.g. http://www.talkorigins.org , and many very good books. As always, I strongly recommend Richard Dawkins' books The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker. This will give you a much more detailed explanation than you can expect on a message board.

    ThiChi,

    Copy and paste is the order of the day, eh? The "abiogenesis law" is simply a general statement based on observations in the 19th century. Life has been around and evolved for billions of years, and it's a safe bet that nothing we'd recognize as life could originate from non-living material in this environment.

    Yet, Miller et al's experiment, much maligned by creationists, demonstarted that in the environment of ancient earth, amino acids -- which are organic -- developed continuously. These molecules form very complex structures without any interaction from living things. Once self-replicating molecules exist, we have what is by defintion life. And there is no stopping such replicators from developing into far more advanced forms, due to natural selection.

    [edited to add:] If Pasteur's statement was universally correct, then life could not exist (or it always existed). Logically, life must have originated somehow, thus demonstrating Pastaur's law is not universal. If you want to argue that God created life, then I would say that 1) since god does not procreate, he is not life as understood by biologists; 2) if it is true that Pasteur's lacking observation of life originating from non-life "proves" that abiogenesis is impossible, then our non-observation of God or gods creating life is an even stronger argument that no god ever created any life. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

    Your second posted article is simply ignorant. Some organisms (e.g. flies, but also many fish) procreate by giving birth to an enormous amount of offspring, in the hope that one or two will survive into adulthood. When it has "chosen" this strategy, it cannot put any resources into caring for or protecting its offspring. Numbers alone will have to do the job. The alternative strategy is to put all the resources into some very few, maybe one, child. It is then free to protect, feed and care for these children, thus hoping to increase its success. As nature demonstrates very well, both strategies can work (and of course there is a continuoum between them).

    Your assertion that creating an enormous amount of offspring is the only viable road to success is simply wrong, as anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the world around us can tell you. Don't creationists ever actually study nature to find out how it works? You shouldn't be too busy misquoting evolutionists and copying each other's ignorance to actually do some real research of your own.

    - Jan
    --
    - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Rem,

    As I said, I am a simple person. Of course I know about amphibians etc, etc.

    The interesting thing about Evolutionists and Fundamentalists is that neither is open to contrary opinion, both are satisfied with their position and their "faith".

    My basic point is that there is no present living proof of interspecies evolution. Even the amphibians remain stagnant, they do not mate with others outside of their limited kind, they do not show progession.

    Evolutionists display an incomplete set of fossils and ask us to have faith in their word. Fundamentalists display old manuscripts and ask us to have faith. I don't want faith, I want proof. Undeniable living proof!!

    Until someone is able to provide such they have no right to assail my, or anyone elses, position on anything.

    IW

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