John 8:57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” Why not say he was yet 40 if he only lived to be 33? This scripture has always puzzled me about the accurancy of Jesus' true age.
I don't get this...Jesus' birth and death
by poopsiecakes 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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djeggnog
@Larsinger58:
Second, the Bible clearly contradicts the popular history of Herod dying in 4 BC or 3 BC. Jesus has to be over 1 year of age when Herod dies and Jesus is not born until 2 BC.
When we begin the rule of Herod in 37 BC and end it 37 years later, we get the date of Shebat 2, 1 AD. This confirms Jesus' birth in 2 BC.
I have said that Jesus was born during the fall in the Jewish month of Ethanim (Tishri-September/October) in the year 3759 A.M. on the Hebrew calendar or 2 BC on Julian/Gregorian calendar. I have also said that Jesus was six months younger than his second cousin, John the Baptist, who was born during the spring in the Jewish month of Abib (Nisan) in the same year, 3759 A.M. or 2 BC. Please reconcile your two statements.
IN SUMMARY: The lunar eclipse and rule of Quirnius are confirmed to match a 2 BC birth of Christ. Claims Herod died in other years is based on revisionism.
Please reconcile your earlier two statements with this statement.
@Larsinger58 wrote:
Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20th, 33 CE, after a 3.5-year ministry.
@djeggnog wrote:
So are you suggesting that Nisan 20 was the day on which the passover was celebrated in the year 33 AD? Are you suggesting that Nisan 20 is when the passover is celebrated in any year?
@Larsinger58 wrote:
No. Sorry, you totally misunderstood. Let me be as direct as possible.
Jesus sent the disciples out on the day the lambs were killed, which is Nisan 14th.
No, this would have been the day before the passover seder was eaten, which would be Nisan 13, not Nisan 14.
The lambs were killed beginning at 3 p.m. at the temple per Josephus. Nisan 14th is the day of preparation.
Why do you here mention that lambs were killed at the temple in preparation for the sabbath? We are here discussing when the passover was eaten, are we not? People didn't go to the temple to celebrate the passover seder; they purchased a lamb or a goat and celebrated the passover in their own homes. The passover was observed on Nisan 14, and it was always eaten on the day before the festival of unfermented cakes, the first day of which being observed on Nisan 15, which is a sabbath, which always follows the passover observed on Nisan 14. Please stay on point. In 33 AD, Nisan 14 was the day of preparation not just called such for the sake of the sabbath -- the seven-day festival of unfermented cakes, the first day of which being observed on Nisan 15, the day that immediately follows the passover -- but primarily because Nisan 14 was the day before the weekly sabbath as well. Nisan 14 is never a sabbath, but Nisan 15 is always a sabbath and so is the seventh day of the week a sabbath.
Jesus joined them after sunset to eat the traditional passover after sundown. Once sundown occurs it is the sabbath day. Note that the same night the Jews ate passover is the same night they leave Egypt. They leave Egypt on the 15th, which is a sabbath day. That means that sabbath day included the passover meal since the sabbath day began after sundown. IT'S THE SAME DAY. The same day they eat passover is the same sabbath day they leave Egypt.
Jesus is quoted as saying the following to his apostles on the last day as a human being here on earth: "I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15) While it's true that the Jews ate the passover seder on the same night on which they left Egypt, you have for whatever reason here concluded that the passover in a sabbath day; it isn't.
When the sons of Israel left Egypt, it was after the angelic destroyer has "passed over" or "skipped over" the homes of those having the blood of a lamb or the blood of a goat splashed upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways, "on this night" -- Nisan 14 -- eating the flesh of the passover victim "with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens." (Exodus 12:8, 29; Hebrews 11:28) When eating the passover, they were to eat it in haste with their hips girded and their sandals on their feet because "on this night" -- Nisan 14 -- the sons of Israel would be making their exodus from Egypt. (Exodus 12:10, 11)
While you seem to believe that the sons of Israel celebrated the passover on Nisan 15 and left Egypt on Nisan 15, consider what Exodus 12:51 says about Nisan 14: "And it came about on this very day that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel together with their armies out of the land of Egypt." Exodus 12:51 doesn't suggest that the exodus occurred on the day after the passover, which would be Nisan 15, but that it occurred "on this very day," namely, on Nisan 14, "that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel together with their armies out of the land of Egypt." Exodus 12:51 doesn't say, that "it came about on the very NEXT day that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel together with their armies out of the land of Egypt," but that it came about on this very day that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel together with their armies out of the land of Egypt." There is nothing ambiguous as to the meaning of the words, "on this very day."
Notice, too, that it was after midnight on Nisan 14, after the destroyed had struck every firstborn of man and beast in the land of Egypt, that a great outcry arose among the Egyptians "because there was not a house where there was not one dead." So it was "by night" that the king of Egypt summoned Moses and Aaron, telling them to "Get up, get out from the midst of my people, both you and the other sons of Israel, and go, serve Jehovah, just as you have stated. Take both your flocks and your herds, just as you have stated, and go." (Exodus 12:29-32)
On this same night -- Nisan 14 -- because the Egyptians had begun to urge the sons of Israel to leave "quickly out of the land," we read that "the people carried their flour dough before it was leavened, with their kneading troughs wrapped up in their mantles upon their shoulder," and went on "to depart from Rameses for Succoth," along with some of the Egyptians that left Egypt with them on this night, and we note that "they began to bake the flour dough that they had brought out from Egypt into round cakes, unfermented cakes, because it had not leavened, for they had been driven out of Egypt and had not been able to linger and too they had not prepared any provisions for themselves," for they had left Egypt "on this night" -- Nisan 14 -- in haste with their hips girded and their sandals on their feet, carrying "their flour dough before it was leavened, with their kneading troughs wrapped up in their mantles upon their shoulder." (Exodus 12:37-40)
The sons of Israel dwelled in Egypt for 430 years, and "at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, it even came about on this very day that all the armies of Jehovah went out of the land of Egypt," so the passover -- Nisan 14 -- became "a night for observance with regard to Jehovah for bringing them out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 12:40-42) The sons of Israel weren't in Egypt on Nisan 15. They left Egypt on Nisan 14, the very night when they had observed the passover in haste.
So if we superimpose the time the Jews were leaving Egypt on the 15th, shortly after eating passover, to the time of Jesus, then Jesus would have been arrested around the time the Jews were leaving Egypt! That is, on the 15th. That's very simple.
There is no need to "superimpose" anything. Jesus was arrested on Nisan 14, he was tried on Nisan 14 and he died on Nisan 14. Jesus was already dead on Nisan 15, having died three hours earlier "about the ninth hour," that is, about 3:00 pm on Nisan 14.
Noting this, Jesus could not die the same day he eats passover, because you cannot execute someone on a sabbath day.
But Jesus did die on the same day on which he ate the passover with his apostles. Jesus wasn't executed on a sabbath day; he was executed on the passover!
Further, the Bible says he died on a day of preparation.
Does the Bible say that Jesus died "on a day of preparation" or does it say that he died "on Preparation"? It says that Jesus died on Preparation, there being only one such day observed by the Jews in the year 3793 A.M. on the Hebrew calendar, April 4, 33 AD, on the Julian calendar, April 2, 33 AD, on the Gregorian calendar, but what you don't seem to know is that this "day of preparation" was Nisan 14, for you are suggesting here that is a fictitious "day of preparation" that was observed the week after passover, a "day of preparation" that was observed by the Jews on Thursday, Nisan 20.
By the time he was arrested, it was long after preparation.
Are you suggesting that Jesus' arrest and trial came after the passover on the following week on Thursday, Nisan 20? What does "long after preparation" even mean?
So what choices do we have. Our only conclusion can be that it must have been on the following day of preparation that he died. The next day of preparation was on Thursday, Nisan 20th.
I have no other choices, and you know what? You don't either. There is but one conclusion that can be reached here: Your conclusion is fatally flawed since there was no "following day of preparation." You're making this up or you've bought into something that someone else made up.
You are here saying that Jesus wasn't put on trial until the following week on Thursday, Nisan 20, which you believe to have been "the next day of preparation." "The next day of preparation"? So there are two sabbaths now! Who knew? You cannot possibly be suggesting here that there were two sabbaths, two festivals of unfermented cakes, one of them being observed on Thursday, Nisan 20. Just for grins, please tell me when exactly you believe this other sabbath was observed, this other festival of unfermented cakes was celebrated by the Jews?
So, NO, I am not saying passover was eaten on Nisan 20th, I'm saying Jesus died on Nisan 20th, which means he did not die the same day he eats passover, which many are confused about.
I understand what you are saying here and it is my opinion that the only one that is "confused" as to these things is you.
@Larsinger58 wrote:
He must die on a Thursday since that is "three nights" to Saturday night, when he rose.
@djeggnog wrote:
You speak of there being "three nights," but Jesus was dead for only two nights, for the Bible indicates that he would rise "on the third day," and just as Jesus had foretold, he was "raised up the third day." (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4) Where ever did you get this idea that there were "three nights"?
@Larsinger58 wrote:
ROFL! How is it that you have so much knowledge of all the scriptures yet have to ask where the reference to the "three nights" is? That's amazing.
You may not want to take my question to you seriously, but there was really no reason for you to have been rolling around on the floor over the question. I am a Bible scholar and, like a lawyer, I will typically not ask a question to which I do not already know the answer. Be that as it may, this doesn't answer my question.
Matthew 12:40 says Jesus would be in the grave for "three days and three nights." That's where the "three nights" comes from. Why didn't you look it up in the concordance?
Look up what "in the concordance"? What "concordance"? The question I asked you was not one that could in any way be associated with any concordance. My question to you was this: "Where ever did you get this idea that there were 'three nights'?" I don't see how it is that you would think that your quoting Matthew 12:40 is at all responsive to my question; it isn't responsive to it.
Since you are injecting what Jesus stated at Matthew 12:40 by way of response, though not responsive to my question, it's apparent to me that you've decided that you can guess what it was Jesus, or any of the Jews in Jesus' day for that matter, meant by the Jewish idiom, "three days and three nights." This expression is a figure of speech that means "on the third day." It should be more than obvious that in Jesus' saying "three days and three nights" that he could not possibly have meant 72 hours since the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus rose "on the third day." (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4) Jesus himself explained what he meant by "three days and three nights":
Matthew 17:22, 23:
"The Son of man is destined to be betrayed into men’s hands, 23 and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up."
Luke 24:46:
"In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day."
Scriptural proof of what "three days and three nights" or "on the third day" means is found at 1 Kings 12:12, where the words of King Rehoboam articulated in Jeroboam's hearing at 1 Kings 12:5 -- "Go away for three days and return to me." -- were comprehended by Jeroboam to mean, "Return to me on the third day." Of course, when Jeroboam returned on the third day -- and not the fourth day -- Rehoboam became unreasonable, which led to a splitting of the Israelites into two kingdoms, with Jeroboam becoming king of ten-tribe northern kingdom and Rehoboam remaining king over the two-tribe southern kingdom.
There is no basis for this notion about Jesus being in his grave for "three nights"; the Bible doesn't support this idea of yours. Leave the concordances alone; concordances are designed for the express purpose of indexing the words contained in some document or text. A typical Bible concordance contains a comprehensive index of all of the words used in the Bible, which makes it possible to find where in the Bible a particular word is used.
One seeking to find the definition of a word, phrase or expression used in the Bible wouldn't necessarily reach for a Bible concordance; maybe a Bible dictionary, but not a concordance. If you insist on making things up instead of conducting appropriate research to ascertain the meaning of a word or idiom you find in the Bible that was used by the Jews, then I suppose you will continue this sad exercise of rolling on the floor laughing instead of learning.
@djeggnog wrote:
First, it must be noted that the Jews reckoned a day from sunset-to-sunset or evening-to-evening, so Jesus observed the passover with his apostles after 6:00 pm, during the evening hours on Thursday, when Nisan 14 began, but because Jesus was impaled approximately 21 hours later "about the ninth hour" during the daylight hours on Friday before the next evening at 6:00 pm when Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, Nisan 15 began, Jesus essentially died on Thursday/Friday Nisan 14 within a 24-hour period.
Second, the Jews didn't use a midnight-to-midnight reckoning of the day in use today, for unlike what happens when the clock strikes midnight according to our midnight-to-midnight way of reckoning a day, Thursday did not become Friday, Nisan 15 after the stroke of midnight, but at dawn, or at 6:00 am, Thursday became Friday, Nisan 14, for according to the Jews' evening-to-evening way of reckoning a day, Nisan 14 began the previous evening (Thursday, at 6:00 pm) and ended the next evening (Friday, at 6:00 pm), so that Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, Nisan 15 began at 6:00 pm.
@Larsinger58 wrote:
Sorry, but this is not correct. The Jews actually did change the date at Midnight as the Egyptians did when they first came out of Egypt. Thus the first day of unfermented cakes is said to begin on the 14th "in the evening". The Jews left Egypt on the 15th, the same night they ate passover. So either the date changed at midnight or passover was eaten on the 15th. Later on the date was considered to change at sunset, but that's a later custom.
Ok.
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days.
John 18:28 states: "Then they led Jesus from Ca´ia·phas to the governor’s palace. It was now early in the day. But they themselves did not enter into the governor’s palace, that they might not get defiled but might eat the passover."
To what "passover" does the apostle John refer here? When referring to the "passover" at Matthew 26:17, reference is made to the "first day of the unfermented cakes":
"On the first day of the unfermented cakes the disciples came up to Jesus, saying: 'Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the passover?'"
As already set forth earlier in this thread, the "first day of the unfermented cakes" was the passover and was also called "Preparation" (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54), but Preparation wasn't the first day of the festival of unfermented cakes, which is a sabbath day that is observed the day after the passover. In the year 3793 A.M. on the Hebrew calendar (April 4, 33 AD, on the Julian calendar, April 2, 33 AD, on the Gregorian calendar), Preparation was the day that preceded the weekly sabbath.
However, at John 18:28, the Jews that had handed Jesus over the Pilate early in the day on Nisan 14 were concerned that they should not become defiled and not be permitted to eat the passover, which would here be referring to the sabbath on the following day, the entire eight-day period of which "the first day" Jesus had already celebrated "the passover" with his apostles earlier on Nisan 14 in the evening, "the passover" in this case meaning "the preparation of the passover," just being an abbreviated way of referring to the sabbath, a part of this eight-day period.
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 [a.m.]) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days.
I'm assuming here that when you refer to a "third-hour ... impalement" that you say this based upon your reading of Mark 15:25 states: "It was now the third hour, and they impaled him." You seem to be of the belief that Jesus was impaled early in the morning, at 9 a.m, but this is not what Mark 15:25 says at all. Mark's gospel is just a narrative that provides eyewitness testimony of Jesus' life and ministry, as well as his trial before Pontius Pilate. Yes, Jesus' trial was well underway at 9 a.m., but he wasn't impaled at 9 a.m. According to the apostle John's gospel at John 19:14-16, Jesus' impalement came later:
"Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews: 'See! Your king!' However, they shouted: 'Take him away! Take him away! Impale him!' Pilate said to them: 'Shall I impale your king?' The chief priests answered: 'We have no king but Caesar.' At that time, therefore, he handed him over to them to be impaled. Then they took charge of Jesus."
Following the events of the day that stretched from the sixth hour until the ninth hour -- from 12:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. -- Mark's gospel then goes on to relate at Mark 15:33, 34, that Jesus had been impaled and what he said in his agony as he uttered a prayer to God at about the ninth hour:
"When it became the sixth hour a darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: 'E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?' which means, when translated: 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"
Matthew 27:45 agrees: "From the sixth hour on a darkness fell over all the land, until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: 'E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?' that is, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'" As did Mark's gospel, Matthew's gospel states that this darkness that fell over the land occurred from noon ("the sixth hour") until 3:00 pm. ("the ninth hour") and that it was around the ninth hour when Jesus prayed in agony to God.
The trial of Jesus Christ was a lengthy one that began at dawn when the religious leaders handed Jesus over to Pilate. Mark 15:1 indicates that "immediately at dawn the chief priests with the older men and the scribes, even the whole Sanhedrin, conducted a consultation, and they bound Jesus and led him off and handed him over to Pilate. I have already pointed out above how John 18:28 states how it was "early in the day" on Nisan 14 when Jesus was led "from Caiaphas to the governor's palace," but this trial, which commenced when Jesus was handed over to Pilate began at about 6:00 am., and lasted for several hours.
When Pilate got to hear the charges lodged against Jesus, he sent Jesus on to Herod to be tried by Herod, but Herod "sent him back to Pilate." (Luke 23:6, 7, 11)
Pilate again listened to Jesus' accusers and found "nothing deserving of death" to have been committed by Jesus and indicated that he would chastise and release him. (Luke 23:15, 16)
Desiring to release Jesus on some pretext, Pilate decided to employ the custom of allowing the people to decide who between two condemned men to release, so he offered Barabbas as an alternate choice and the people choice Barabbas over Jesus. (Matthew 27:15-21)
Pilate still finding no ground upon which to condemn Jesus indicated again that he would just chastise and release him. (Luke 23:20-22)
This is when the religious leaders went on to threaten Pilate: "'If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar. Every man making himself a king speaks against Caesar.' Therefore Pilate, after hearing these words, brought Jesus outside, and he sat down on a judgment seat." (John 19:12, 13)
At this point, "Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: 'I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.'" Pilate then released Barabbas, had Jesus whipped and then "handed him over to be impaled." (Matthew 27:24-26)
This wasn't a noon-time trial; the trial of Jesus Christ again early in the day on Nisan 14, 3793 A.M., April 4, 33 AD, Julian, April 2, 33 AD; Jesus wasn't impaled until sometime after the noon hour, at which point there was darkness that fell upon the land for about three hours as Jesus was impaled. When Jesus died around 3:00 pm, all of this had occurred during the daylight hours of Nisan 14 within a span of about nine hours following his arrest following his celebration of the passover with his apostles during the evening hours of Nisan 14.
@Larsinger58 wrote:
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.
@djeggnog wrote:
It's true that John 19:14 states --
"Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour."
--- but do you also find a problem with the Greek syntax at Mark 15:42 and at Luke 23:54?
Mark 15:42: "Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,"
Luke 23:54: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching."
@Larsinger58 wrote:
Absolutely, no problem. What you are missing is that there are two special "high sabbaths" of passover. Let me quote for you Exodus 12:
Exodus 12:16And on the first day there is to take place for YOU a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. No work is to be done on them. Only what every soul needs to eat, that alone may be done for YOU."
So you see, there are two sabbath days of passover. Likewise there are two preparation days for passover, Nisan 14th and Nisan 20th. So you have a choice. Jesus must die on a Thursday, "three nights" before Saturday night, and in 33 CE Thursday was a day of preparation. That's the day jesus died.
No, there are a few problems absolutely. First, do should not quote any scripture that you do not really understand, for it's poor form to do something like this when you are discussing the Bible with a scholar. Second, what Exodus chapter 12 refers to is the seven-day festival of unfermented cakes, which always begins on Nisan 15 and ends on Nisan 21, and never on Nisan 20.
Regarding the Nisan 14 passover meal that was to become "as a statute" for the sons of Israel, Exodus 12:8, 14 says that they "must eat the flesh on this night ... with unfermented cakes" and that they "must celebrate it as a festival to Jehovah." Then Exodus 12:15, 18, goes on to introduce a sabbath, the festival of unfermented cakes, to wit: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."
Third, it isn't true that there are two sabbath days of passover." How many times did the angelic destroyer pass over or skip over the sons of Israel that had splashed the blood of a lamb or goat upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways? Was it on Nisan 14 and on Nisan 20? No, he passed over only on Nisan 14.
Fourth, there are no "three nights" to consider. This concept of yours is wholly unscriptural.
Fifth, Nisan 14, 3793 A.M., April 4, 33 AD, Julian, April 2, 33 AD, was Preparation; Nisan 14 of this year preceded the seventh day, which was a sabbath, and this is primarily why Nisan 14 of this particular year was called Preparation.
When Jesus celebrated his first passover as the Christ on Nisan 14, 3790 A.M., April 5, 30 AD, Julian, April 3, 30 AD, Preparation fell on Friday, Nisan 16.
When Jesus celebrated his second passover as the Christ on Nisan 14, 3791 A.M., April 25, 31 AD, Julian, April 23, 31 AD, Preparation fell on Friday, Nisan 16.
When Jesus celebrated his third passover as the Christ on Nisan 14, 3792 A.M., April 14, 32 AD, Julian, April 12, 32 AD, Preparation fell on Friday, Nisan 18.
When Jesus celebrated his fourth passover as the Christ on Nisan 14, 3793 A.M., April 3, 33 AD, Julian, April 1, 33 AD, Preparation fell on Friday, Nisan 14.
What do you notice that is in common as to the day on which Preparation fell? But you speak of there being "two preparation days for passover, Nisan 14th and Nisan 20th," when in all but one of these above-listed passovers, none of them "preparation days" are passovers, are they? Also, if a passover should fall on any other day but the sixth day, a Friday, then the day after the passover will never be the seventh day because Preparation is always on a Friday. Consequently, a "preparation day" can never fall on a Thursday, as you have suggested here.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE! How clever of you to avoid the issue. I brought up a very important point which you avoid. Which I will reassert and request your response:
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.
If I failed to address this particular aspect in my previous post, I do not fail to do so in this one. I've indicated five (5) different problems with this statement of yours; it has no merit whatsoever. You now have my answer.
So please explain this to me. A noon time trial followed by a third-hour impalement followed by a noon-time darkness, all on the same day. That's what you need to explain. How can all this happen on one day? His trial is at noon. It gets dark at noon and lots of things happen in between. So what's going on per your interpretation/explanation. I'm curious. It seems to me you need two days here. You apparently get past this in some way, I'm just wondering how you do that.
I have no comment.
1. Luke 22:7 says Jesus sent out the disciples the same day the lambs were killed. He joined them after sunset. So no matter what, we know the passover meal was eaten on a different day than when he sent his disciples out.
How exactly do "we" know this?
This contradicts what the WTS is claiming, which is the lambs were killed between sundown and nightfall, which is when they interpret "between the two evenings." Of course, this contradicts our historical reference from Josephus who clearly says the lambs were killed at Jerusalem between the "ninth and 11th hours" which is between 3 and 5 p.m.
There is no connection between what we are discussing here and Josephus' writings with respect to whether any lambs or goats were killed at the temple in Jerusalem. We are not talking about some priestly function that took place at the time on Atonement Day. Please do not confuse the passover seder that the Jews would have at home with the Atonement Day sacrifices that was performed at the temple. One went out and purchased their own passover victim and ate it at home, not at the temple in Jerusalem. Please stay on point.
Of course the WTS deals with this by saying Jesus sent out the 2 disciples on the 13th, and they prepared everything for the meal except the killing of lamb, which was killed after sundown. Completely contradicting scripture.
How so?
But even so, again, it is clear that between the time he sent them out, even if it was right after sundown, it would not be until the following sundown that he ate the passover meal, keeping in mind that the day they were sent out must be the day the lambs are killed. The lambs are killed on a different day than passover is eaten.
Right. So where did the Jews during the first century AD keep the dead lambs? Where did Jesus have his apostles store this meat if they actually killed the lambs one day and ate the meat on the following day? As I'm sure you're thinking about all of the things that pertain to the plausibility of your statements here -- you must be! -- did Jesus eat the blood along with the passover victim? It certainly seems to me that absent refrigeration, we would have a violation of the Law of Moses here and a violation of the rainbow covenant that God made with Noah as well. Did Jesus miraculously refrigerate the meat after the blood had been poured out so that it would be ok to eat the very next day? Do you know what happens to fresh meat that is killed and not refrigerated in just a few hours? Do you stop to think before you posted any of this here? You might try doing some of that right now.
2. Jesus' trial was at noon but it also got dark at noon. In between the noon trial and the noon darkness, you have a third-hour impalement. The third hour is 9 o'clock. Obviously, he must have been impaled at 9 p.m. since that is the first third-hour following a trial at noon. Bottom line is, that you need two days for this. The trial has to be a day before it gets dark. Once you face that, then you know Jesus could not have died the same day he ate the passover meal.
Ok.
3. The official passover Seder meal is eaten on the same night the Jews [leave] Egypt. The Jews leave Egypt on the 15th after midnight. That means that Jesus was arrested on the 15th which is ALWAYS A SABBATH DAY. ALWAYS.
I disagree vehemently with you. The passover seder meal is eaten on the evening of Nisan 14, the day on which the sons of Israel left Egypt, and never on Nisan 15. Jesus was arrested on Nisan 14, and while Nisan 15 is always a sabbath day, the fact that Jesus was arrested is totally besides the point, having nothing at all to do with whether Nisan 15 is always a sabbath.
Jesus died on a day of [preparation] not a sabbath day, thus Jesus could not have died on the same day he eats passover.
Jesus did die on Nisan 14, which is the day on which the passover is celebrated, the day on which he ate the passover seder with his apostles. In the year that Jesus died, Nisan 14, 3793 A.M., April 3, 33 AD, Julian, April 1, 33 AD, passover fell on a Friday, which is always the day before the seventh day of the week, which always means that Jesus died on Preparation. Preparation will never be a sabbath day as it always falls on the sixth day of the week, on a Friday.
Now some are confused because they think the date changes at sundown. But when the Jews first left Egypt, they changed the date at midnight as did the Egyptians. Therefore, when the DATES are in the context, the Bible has to use two different dates to describe a sabbath day. That is, if the date did not change until midnight when the Israelites first left, then the sabbath day of the first day of UFC must have begun on Nisan 14th in the evening. The Israelites left on the 15th, but that's after midnight when the date changed. No problem. Thus we note Exodus begins the 1st day of UFC on the fourteenth in the evening.
Nope. You seem to be of the opinion that the sons of Israel reckoned a day other than from evening-to-evening. You are the one that is confused in this regard, but I'm willing to leave you in this state of confusion.
@djeggnog
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WontLeave
Larsinger vs. Eggnog
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poopsiecakes
ooh ooh
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poopsiecakes
What these two titans of logic and critical thinking have proved, ladies and gentlemen (I need a sarcasm smiley), is that the bible is a very unreliable source for information about even the most basic details about Jesus. There is far too much contradiction, which leads to interpretation, which leads back to square one. Every time. I've said it before and I'll say it again - take the bible out of the equation and you're left with the same myths that permeated all civilizations at the time who had very similar 'son of god savior' personages in their stories. Leave the bible in the equation and you're no further ahead - you're just looking at the result of religion's influence and how the christian dogma has dominated western civilization so effectively.
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EntirelyPossible
When these mental giants get together arguing, I am reminded of this scene from Chasing Amy.
Banky: Alright, now see this? This is a four-way road, OK? And dead in the center is a crisp, new, hundred dollar bill. Now, at the end of each of these streets are four people, OK? Are you following?
Holden: Yeah.
Banky: Good. Over here, we have a male-affectionate, easy to get along with, non-political agenda lesbian. Down here, we have a man-hating, angry as fuck, agenda of rage, bitter dyke. Over here, we got Santa Claus, and up here the Easter Bunny. Which one is going to get to the hundred dollar bill first?
Holden: What is this supposed to prove?
Banky: No, I'm serious. This is a serious exercise. It's like an SAT question. Which one is going to get to the hundred dollar bill first? The male-friendly lesbian, the man-hating dyke, Santa Claus, or the Easter bunny?
Holden: The man-hating dyke.
Banky: Good. Why?
Holden: I don't know.
Banky: Because the other three are figments of your f*cking imagination! -
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palmtree67
Excellent thread.
A little draggy in the middle, though.
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Larsinger58
djeggnog: Notice, too, that it was after midnight on Nisan 14, after the destroyed had struck every firstborn of man and beast in the land of Egypt, that a great outcry arose among the Egyptians "because there was not a house where there was not one dead." So it was "by night" that the king of Egypt summoned Moses and Aaron, telling them to "Get up, get out from the midst of my people, both you and the other sons of Israel, and go, serve Jehovah, just as you have stated. Take both your flocks and your herds, just as you have stated, and go." (Exodus 12:29-32)
You are very well informed about the wrong things. Here is what is missing.
1. When the Israelites first left Egypt, they changed the DATE at midnight. So passover was eaten on Nisan 14th up until midnight, when the angel of death arrived and then that meal ended. At midnight the date changed to the 15. This is directly confirmed by a scripture that you must not be aware of, Numbers 33:3
2. The Bible specifically states that the Israelites left on the 15th, which directly contradicts your above statement: Here is Numbers 33:3:
3 And they proceeded to pull away from Ram´e·ses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month...
In other words, the first day of unfemented cakes was made into a special sabbath day, because that was the day they left Egypt. That meant that passover was eaten on the same sabbath day because it was that SAME NIGHT they left Egypt. Your confusion comes from thinking the DATE changed at sundown rather than at midnight as it does now. That being the case, as I quoted from before, that would mean the first day of unfermented cakes begins on Nisan 14th in the evening, which is clearly stated at Exodus 12:
17 “‘And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring YOUR armies out from the land of Egypt. And YOU must keep this day throughout YOUR generations as a statute to time indefinite. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.
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Larsinger58
This is really so simple.
The day the Israelites left Egypt was made into a national holiday, a special sabbath day. What is that day? That day if the first day of unfermented cakes. The actual DATE they left, which was after midnight, was the 15th. That seems to contradict the scriptures that clearly say passover is eaten on the 14th. But passover ends specifically at midnight, which is when the date changed from the 14th to the 15th. So the special sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes, actually begins on the 14th, in the evening, which is what the Bible says:
17 “‘And YOU must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring YOUR armies out from the land of Egypt. And YOU must keep this day throughout YOUR generations as a statute to time indefinite. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."
So it is still the 14th from sunset to midnight, then it changes to the 15th.
So when Jesus was arrested, which was after midnight, it was the 15th, a sabbath day. Thus he could not die on this day, a sabbath day. The Bible says he dies on preparation for a "high sabbath" of passover. There were two high sabbaths of passover. They were the 1st and 7th days of UFC. These were the 14/15 and 20/21st. Likewise, there were two preparation for passover high sabbaths, which fell on 13/14 and 19/20. Since Jesus was arrested on the 15th, the next day of "preparation of the passover [sabbath of the 21st]" fell on Nisan 19/20th, a Thursday in 33 CE. Since Friday was a special high-sabbath, there were two sabbath days in a row. This is what accorded Jesus being in the grave for "three nights" (Matt. 12:40), which was Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night.
The Israelites left Egypt on the 15th so Jesus was arrested on the 15th. There are no two ways about this. This is confusing unless you understand that when the Isrealites first left Egypt, they used the Egyptian method of dating, which changed their date at midnight. That means the first 6 hours of the sabbath day belong to one date and the final part to another. Since passover ends at midnight, specifically, it is always said to be eaten on the 14th, yet the festival of UFC and the date the Israelites leave Egypt is always on the 15th. But both events occur after midnight. Even so, it's the same sabbath day and the same night. The Isralites eat passover the very same night they leave Egypt. This is not that difficult to understand because today we change the date at midnight, which is very practical.
LS
