Sounds nice but it is too idealistic too succeed. It's just another utopian ideology with a different flavor. Only system that survived different forms of goverment throughout the ages is market, which is what we have. I wish it wasn't so, but it is. For Zeitgeist to succeed would require complete dismantling and abandonment of current way of living. Many utopian ideas start with premise that human is essentially a noble creature and under right circumstances that nobility would carry him forward. Well it just ain't so. Its been proven without shadow of a doubt that humans want practical solutions with immediate returns. Market economy was not imposed on society. Society experimented with many forms of goverments and ideologies way before that. Market economy is the only thing that has survived it all. It is not perfect but it is us, our mirror image.
The Zeitgeist Movement
by losthobbit 26 Replies latest jw friends
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tec
I'm going to leave the religious aspect of Zeitgeist completely out of this and respond only to some of the rest.
I've looked at the Venus project stuff, and the end results are amazing. Like a Utopia. But there is no plan to get from here to there. If you don't give people a direct plan, then they are not going to take you seriously. You're just a dreamer, living in a future fantasy and not the present, real world. That's what it seemed like to me. There are real problems right now. Work toward your goal, sure, but have some sort of real plan now to get from here to there. That plan can change as you go along and as need be, but work a little less on what things are going to be like 300 years from now, and a little more on how we take the first and second steps.
Plus the founder said during one talk that I watched, that we have to have a big crash or something to destroy most of the world systems and way of life as we know it. THEN we can build up from there; this time doing it right.
That is not a plan.
Tammy
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outlawwilly
OutlawWilly, one of my biggest peeves was the number of people who were murdered in my neighbourhood, making me move to a safer country. You must live a fantastically sheltered life, if one of your biggest peeves is posters.
You don't know shit about my past and what I have gone through or experienced. I know about bad neighbourhooods. I have lived and travelled all over this damn continent and have been in and part of stuff that no one should have to go through. I just do not sit back and whine about it all over the damn internet. Nor am I nieve enough to think that a bunch (read no one really) of people getting together to bring "change to the system" will do a damn bit of good. So you can live in your delusional world and whine and moan all over the internet making yourself feel better, and in the end you are just replacing one delusional system (religion) with another futile hope. It is all just a waste of time. Of course this is just my opinion. Cheers.
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botchtowersociety
99% of the problems listed in the Zeitgeist mission statement are born out of top down control. There is no technocratic elite that can possibly posess the intelligence to properly manage entire national economies, let alone a global one.
Yet the Zeitgeist movement argues that if all the world's resources were made available to some sort of "enlightened" central planning board (cybernetic or otherwise) then there would be no scarcity, since this board could decide what to make, how much to make, and who to give it to.
It also advocates the dissolution of money, but the pricing signal is the only way to rationally calculate resource allocation.
Resources are scarce. Money and market pricing are used as the best rationing system for scarce resources. Without money we fall back on inferior rationing systems that exacerbate scarcity.
Whenever I hear about a movement advocating a "scientific approach" and "social management", I tend to shake my head. The Nazis and Soviets also believed they were taking a "scientific approach" to "social management."
This approach has always failed.
Zeitgeist is basically a rebranded Marxism.
"Marxism with robots"
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botchtowersociety
This thread is not about a movie.
But the movement is related to the movie.
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leavingwt
But the movement is related to the movie.
I did not realize this. Thank you. I read that the film inspired the movement.
The movie was complete bull$hit, a mixture of lies and distortions with little truth.
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TheLoveDoctor
I like the concept of the zietgiest movment along with the venus project. Now so manny tend to look for proplems from there own presprective yet I know we must do something about the world know. 'the movement and thier suggestions dont claim to be perfect and know that we can do so much better and must do something. We as a race must change. that video of the that gentlmen two comments up that guy is living to much in the world we must change along with peoples thinking and at times we wont like it cause the kind of things we've done to one another and to this plannat means we may have to give up what things we only think are wonderful so we can find, create, better things for all that are truly wonderful. I could go on a long time but iv looked into all of the videos not just the movie, many of peter josephs talks, the venus project has similar ideas. We must come together and make the changes in ouselves and encourage it in others.
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losthobbit
The movement would not have existed without the movie, but the movement is not about the movie... if that makes sense. Most people in the movement that I talk to don't believe everything in Zeitgeist: The Movie. The latest movie, "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" is more in line with the movement than the others were. It shows the founder / film maker's maturity, as he goes from making a rather inaccurate movie, to one which is far more intelligent.
I recommend watching this lecture, by Peter Joseph: http://vimeo.com/7857584
People either seem to love an ideology, or hate it. For me, I don't see how the current system can continue with the high, exponential rate of technological change... the two are simply not compatible.
My opinion... try it, and see if it works. If it doesn't work, try something else. I think we should keep trying different things, until we find a system that works.
OutlawWilly, you seem very offended by what I said. I did not mean to offend you. My only point was that when you weigh up trying to make the world a better place against the problem of seeing posters that you don't like, there really is no comparison.
PSacramento, I believe I answered your question in my second post above?
Mad Sweeny, the concept of the founder, Peter Joseph, being the leader, is not quite as simple as that. People look up to him, because he started the movement, and made the movies, but he's introverted, under a lot of pressure, and tries to get other people to lead.
Anyway, looks like I've thrown the cat amongst the pigeons... but I'm glad to see that people are googling it. Try and see this from an unbiased point of view, and decide for yourself what you think.
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tec
My opinion... try it, and see if it works
Try what? I'm not being contentious. As I stated above, I have no idea what they want people to do... in order to get to where they want to get.
Tammy
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Satanus
'I don't see how the current system can continue with the high, exponential rate of technological change.'
You said that the movement was about managing things SCIENTIFICALLY. Yet, you don't like new science emerging?
'try it, and see if it works. If it doesn't work, try something else. I think we should keep trying different things, until we find a system that works.'
Using money as a way to keep score is a system that works. At present, there is just way too much inequality built into the system. Inequality is the main problem, imo. I'm not promoting taking stuff away from the overacheivers. I think the system needs to be tweeked to give more power to more people, instead of concentrating it more to fewer and fewer people, as it has been for decades.
Education has been and is ongoing, as we speak. Now, w the internet, it is easier than ever for people to inform themselves. Problem is, most people are still too lazy, or just want validation. The education that you talk about sounds like a referal to the movement's gospel, which still is not clear, to me.
If your system needs for a lot of people to dissappear, and cannot work w the people here, now, it doesn't sound like a workable system. That requirement sounds like a copout: ie, it could work if only.....
For measures to be implemented, steps have to be set out CLEARLY, as in number one step, number two step, etc. If the movement's leader has not done that, if steps are not clear in your mind, that is a bad sign.
S