Original Sin

by ixthis 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ixthis
    ixthis

    Good-morning friends, I noticed on another thread the question "What is Cardinal Sin". The replies, naturally, follow a Latinised philosophy originating through the Catholic Church ... I wanted to propose an alternative "view" to "sin". One that many people on this forum may not have ever considered ... this view originates from the Orthodox Christian church and it really is not an "alternative view" as it is the thinking and teaching of the authentic and early Church.

    Forgive me in advance for being blunt however I find it rather silly and tedious to constantly have to compare the teachings of the early Church to that of the Church of Rome and the break-aways from Rome, starting with Martin Luther and the domino affect since then. However, God, and His Truths, are not always to be found just in the mind so to compare the teachings would only bring about a scholastic debate and analysis that really can not be adequately dealth with in this forum. All of the heresies and divisions which have shaken the Church over the centuries have come about because men devise their own views of what the Church teaches and while many of these men have been sincere, their conclusions have only led to the dividing and dividing again of Christianity ...

    That is probably the way any of us should answer this question:

    Rather than give you a comparison simply give you the teaching ... simply put, as far as the "East" is concerned we suffer the "consequence" of original sin , death, and we do not carry the "guilt" of that sin - we merely deal with the results.
    Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev has an excellent Catechism article that deals with this topic. It is in depth, so it gives you plenty of reading material :) Allow me to give you snippets of it relating to this specific topic a link is provided at the end for the entire catechism:

    ... He forbids them to taste of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because ‘to know evil’ is to become party to it and to fall away from bliss and immortality. Adam is given the right to choose between good and evil, even though God makes him aware of the correct choice and warns him of the consequences of falling from grace. In choosing evil, Adam falls away from life and ‘dies a death’; in choosing good, he ascends to perfection and attains the highest goal of his existence.

    The Fall

    The biblical story of the Fall prefigures the entire tragic history of the human race. It shows us who we were and what we have become. It reveals that evil entered the world not by the will of God but by fault of humans who preferred diabolical deceit to divine commandment. From generation to generation the human race repeats Adam’s mistake in being beguiled by false values and forgetting the true ones — faith in God and verity to Him.

    Sin was not ingrained in human nature. Yet the possibility to sin was rooted in the free will given to humans. It was indeed freedom that rendered the human being as an image of the Maker; but it was also freedom that from the very beginning contained within itself the possibility to fall away from God. Out of His love for humans God did not want to interfere in their freedom and forcibly avert sin . But neither could the devil force them to do evil. The sole responsibility for the Fall is borne by humans themselves, for they misused the freedom given to them.

    What constituted the sin of the first people? St Augustine believes it to be disobedience. On the other hand, the majority of early church writers say that Adam fell as a result of pride. Pride is the wall that separates humans from God. The root of pride is egocenticity, the state of being turned in on oneself, self-love, lust for oneself. Before the Fall, God was the only object of the humans’ love; but then there appeared a value outside of God: the tree was suddenly seen to be ‘good for food’, ‘a delight to the eyes’, and something ‘to be desired’ (Gen.3:6). Thus the entire hierarchy of values collapsed: my own ‘I’ occupied the first place while the second was taken by the object of ‘my’ lust. No place has remained for God: He has been forgotten, driven from my life.

    The forbidden fruit failed to bring happiness to the first people. On the contrary, they began to sense their own nakedness: they were ashamed and tried to hide from God. This awareness of one’s nakedness denotes the privation of the divine light-bearing garment that cloaked humans and defended them from the ‘knowledge of evil’. Adam’s first reaction after committing sin was burning sensation of shame. The second reaction was his desire to hide from the Creator. This shows that he had lost all notion of God’s omnipresence and would search for any place where God was ‘absent’.

    However, this was not a total rupture with God. The Fall was not a complete abandonment: humans could repent and regain their former dignity. God goes out to find the fallen Adam; between the trees of Paradise He seeks him out asking ‘Where are you?’ (Gen.3:9). This humble wandering of God through Paradise prefigures Christ’s humility as revealed to us in the New Testament, the humility with which the Shepherd seeks the lost sheep. God has no need to go forth and look for Adam: He can call down from the heavens with a voice of thunder or shake the foundations of the earth. Yet He does not wish to be Adam’s judge, or his prosecutor. He still wants to count him as an equal and puts His hope in Adam’s repentance. But instead of repenting, Adam utters words of self-justification, laying the blame for everything on his wife: ‘The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate’ (Gen.3:12). In other words, ‘It was You who gave me a wife; it is You who is to blame’. In turn, Eve lays the blame for everything on the serpent.

    The consequences of the Fall for the first humans were catastrophic. They were not only deprived of the bliss and sweetness of Paradise, but their whole nature was changed and disfigured. In sinning they fell away from their natural condition and entered an unnatural state of being. All elements of their spiritual and corporeal make-up were damaged: their spirit, instead of striving for God, became engrossed in the passions; their soul entered the sphere of bodily instincts; while their body lost its original lightness and was transformed into heavy sinful flesh. After the Fall the human person ‘became deaf, blind, naked, insensitive to the good things from which he had fallen away, and above all became mortal, corruptible and without sense of purpose’ (St Symeon the New Theologian). Disease, suffering and pain entered human life. Humans became mortal for they had lost the opportunity of tasting from the tree of life.

    Not only humanity but also the entire world changed as a result of the Fall. The original harmony between people and nature had been broken; the elements had become hostile; storms, earthquakes and floods could destroy life. The earth would no longer provide everything of its own accord; it would have to be tilled ‘in the sweat of your face’, and would produce ‘thorns and thistles’. Even the animals would become the human being’s enemy: the serpent would ‘bruise his heel’ and other predators would attack him (Gen.3:14-19). All of creation would be subject to the ‘bondage of decay’. Together with humans it would now ‘wait for freedom’ from this bondage, since it did not submit to vanity voluntarily but through the fault of humanity (Rom.8:19-21)

    The Consequences
    ... After Adam and Eve, " sin [ning]" spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain’s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself ‘built a city’. One of his closest descendants was ‘the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle’; another was ‘the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe’; yet another was ‘the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron’ (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain’s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.

    The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race . This is elucidated by St Paul:

    ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin , and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).

    This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘ original sin ’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’ but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘ original sin ’ means.

    If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam’s sin , bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam’s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.

    However, if we read the text to mean ‘in whom all have sinned’, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam’s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has ‘fallen ill with sin ’; thus we all share Adam’s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of ‘a leaven of evil passions’ and of ‘secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions’, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin .

    The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: ‘Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me’ (Ps.51:7). They believed that God ‘visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation’ (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.

    From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam’s sin is an injustice . But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: ‘...As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous... so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).

    JESUS CHRIST, THE ‘NEW ADAM’
    ... The first-created Adam was unable to fulfil the vocation laid before him: to attain deification and bring to God the visible world by means of spiritual and moral perfection. Having broken the commandment and having fallen away from the sweetness of Paradise, he had the way to deification closed to him. Yet everything that the first man left undone was accomplished for him by God Incarnate, the Word-become-flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ. He trod that path to the human person which the latter was meant to tread towards Him. And if this would have been the way of ascent for the human person, for God it was the way of humble condescension, of self-emptying (kenosis).

    St Paul calls Christ the ‘second Adam’, contrasting Him with the ‘first’: ‘The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven’ (1 Cor.15:47). This parallelism was developed by St John Chrysostom, who emphasized that Adam was the prototype of Christ: ‘Adam is the image of Christ ...as the man for those who came from him, even though they did not eat of the tree, became the cause of death, then Christ for those who were born of Him, although they have done no good, became the bearer of righteousness, which he gave to all of us through the cross’.

    Few people accepted the second Adam or believed in Him when He down to earth. The Incarnate Jesus, Who suffered and was raised, became a ‘a stumbling block to Jews and folly [Greek, skandalon] to Gentiles’ (1 Cor.1:23). Declaring Himself to be God and making Himself equal to God, Jesus scandalize Jews and was accused in blasphemy. As to the Greeks, Christianity was folly for them because Greek thought sought a logical and rational explanation for everything; it was not within its power to know a suffering and dying God. For many centuries Greek wisdom built a temple to ‘an unknown God’ (Acts 17:23). It was incapable of understanding how an unknowable, incomprehensible, all-powerful, almighty, omniscient and omnipresent God could become a mortal, suffering, weak human person. A God, Who would be born of a Virgin, a God Who would be in swaddling clothes, Who would be put to sleep and be fed with milk: all of this seemed absurd to the Greeks.

    Even among the Christians of the first centuries, the mystery of godmanhood was explained in a different ways. In the second century the Docetists claimed that Christ’s human nature was merely transparent: it only seemed that He suffered and died on the cross, while God in fact, being passionless, could not suffer at all. The Docetists considered all that was material and corporeal to be evil and could not concede that God had put on sinful and evil flesh, that He had united Himself with dust. The other extreme was that of Arianism which denied Christ’s Divinity and reduced the Son of God to the level of created being. How were extremes to be avoided and how was the Church to find a legitimate explanation for the mystery of Christ?

    Source

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Thanks, and welcome.

    Syl

  • ixthis
    ixthis

    Snowbird! Thank you for your welcome! :)

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    hi ixthis - welcome

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    I do not believe Augustinian/Catholic original sin is biblical. Does the WT teach this view? Most of 'Christendom' does believe it, so I am in a minority in my circles. The post is too long, so I am not sure what your point of view is, but it sounds interesting. What is your faith background and where are you at now?

  • seraphinajade
    seraphinajade

    I started two topics yet both are marked as private, so I thought I would try here:

    Hi There all,

    I have been speaking with 2 beautiful JW's for the past few months (after bagging the religion), but still have many, many unanswered questions.

    One of the many that bothers me is this:

    Why does god allow mental illness? Say a human is born with skitzophrenia or autism or a mental disorder that, not by their own fault, distances them from god because their minds simply cannot process the thought. They have no hope whatsoever for making into heaven, so what are their purpose to god?

    I also wrote another question awhile ago:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/208474/1/Question-about-evil

    That nobody can answer me without scriptures and excuses.

    I would love to understand why.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    The Fall/sin, free will, Satan/demons, etc. are part of the explanation for some of these things. It is a wrong assumption that homosexuality, mental illness, etc. is innate, genetic. I know Down's syndrome kids with limited mental capacity who know and love Jesus. Those who lack mental/moral capacity can still go to heaven based on non-rejection of Christ. Gen. 18:25 The judge of all the earth will do the right thing and judge according to capacity and light (some have great light and reject it, while others have little light, respond to it, get more light). The Bible is clear about people like you and I who have opportunity to hear the gospel, but reject it. Even those who have not heard the name of Jesus (the only way to eternal life) are condemned and without excuse (Rom. 1-5).

    There are many resources on the problem of evil with good biblical, philosophical answers. This is not the issue to be hung up on. THe issue is whether we receive or reject Christ, a yes/no answer based on faith/knowledge, not theological perfection. God will triumph over evil in the end, but there are reasons He does not always judge it temporally, immediately (we would all be instantly dead in light of His holiness). Free will is finite, but irrevocable if it is to be genuine. Love is not possible without free will. Having great capacity for love and good implies great capacity for evil, selfishness, hatred, etc. We will all give an account, so justice delayed is not justice denied.

    The WT is not theologically sophisticated and relies on 'Christendom's' publications (which they distort anyway). I would be interested in their concept of original sin (if any), evil, etc. Usually, they have simplistic answers that appeal to simple people, but lack depth of critical thinking, etc.

  • ixthis
    ixthis

    GodRulz: I do not believe Augustinian/Catholic original sin is biblical. Does the WT teach this view? Most of 'Christendom' does believe it, so I am in a minority in my circles. The post is too long, so I am not sure what your point of view is, but it sounds interesting. What is your faith background and where are you at now?

    Hi, could you read the first TWO paragraphs of my original post ... you will find that this thread is not about Augustinian/Catholic origins and also it indicates what my faith background is ... it also indicates that you replied purely on the Subject Title and not through what was posted ... you would be suprised how what is in that first post has nothing to do with what you have heard ever before.

    Is it the WT point of view? No but it IS that of the One Holy and Catholic Apostolic church.

    seraphinajade, I sympathise with your question, however, are you posting questions about mental illness because you think it is linked to the topic of Ancestoral sin? If that is the case perhaps we can have a discussion here otherwise happy to talk via mail ...?

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    It sounds like my comments are relevant. Orthodox and Catholic both affirm 'original sin', do they not?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    IF original sin started with Adam and Eve then what was there sin?

    The First Sin and Its Punishment

    (Rom 5:12–21)

    3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other wild animal that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’ ” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, a knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.

    8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 He said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” 11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.” 14 The Lord God said to the serpent,

    “Because you have done this,

    cursed are you among all animals

    and among all wild creatures;

    upon your belly you shall go,

    and dust you shall eat

    all the days of your life.

    15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,

    and between your offspring and hers;

    he will strike your head,

    and you will strike his heel.”

    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;

    in pain you shall bring forth children,

    yet your desire shall be for your husband,

    and he shall rule over you.”

    17 And to the man b he said,

    “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,

    and have eaten of the tree

    about which I commanded you,

    ‘You shall not eat of it,’

    cursed is the ground because of you;

    in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;

    18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;

    and you shall eat the plants of the field.

    19 By the sweat of your face

    you shall eat bread

    until you return to the ground,

    for out of it you were taken;

    you are dust,

    and to dust you shall return.”

    20 The man named his wife Eve, c because she was the mother of all living. 21 And the Lord God made garments of skins for the man d and for his wife, and clothed them.

    22 Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.

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