Christian Beliefs Concerning Post Death Existence

by Band on the Run 15 Replies latest forum announcements

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  Band on the Run

  Im reading The Meaning of Jesus by N.T. Wright and Marcus Borg. They are NT and early Christianity scholars who studied under the same prof. Both are active believers. The book is a dialogue between them about surmises about Christian belief in the first century. Both are adept at scholarly works. Yet they do differ in some fundamental places.

  The current discussion is what 1st century Jews believed concerning resurrection. They both believe resurrection involved several things at once. The triumph of Jesus over the powers of this worldl is central, with individual salvation a result. Both believe Jesus' body was transformed. It was not resuscitated. I have yet to read where people go between death and the Second Coming.

  I was wondering what others believe about Resurrection and human death. Are we souls in heaven? Created anew the way Jesus said if Abraham did not exist, God would raise the very stones to life. This past Lent my current priest walked us through the Passion Accounts. We all had a melded view, not taking gospel accounts separately. My view of life after death or non-life after death is a much larger muddle. The general culture posits about 200 different views.

  My interest is your gut reaction. Scholarly studies have their limit. I never even thought of us until my aunt died and I spoke with a priest. If all these disparate views exist, it is not so clear in the NT. The Gnostics believed Jesus was a spirit apparition. Their messiah would never be entombed in flesh.
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  ixthis

  Hi Band on the Run,

  To kick off the discussion, I wanted to remark that it is my understanding that the Jehova's Witnesses do not accept that man has an immortal soul. They teach that with death, man ceases to exist. They believe that the spirit of a man is his breath.

  These are not my beliefs, however and I wanted to reflect on some Scriptural passages that can help us to shape an answer to your question (are we souls in heaven) later on.

  a) Man was created "a living soul"

  --> Genesis 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

  Notice, man became a living soul, this is before the "fall"

  b) The spirit is also called soul.

  --> Gen 35:18, 1 Kings 17:21, Psalms 49:18, Psalms 62:1, Matthew 10:28

  --> Acts 2:31, Acts 14:22, Heb 13:17, 1 Peter 1:22, 1 Peter 2:11, 1 Peter 2:25

  --> Revelations 6:9, Revelations 20:4

  c) The soul is also called spirit.

  --> Psalms 143:4, Job 34:14, Eccl 12:7, Isaiah 26:9

  --> mark 14:38, Luke 8:55, Luke 24:46

  --> I can also quote another 10 or more areas from the Bible but it is late and I am tired.

  d) Man's spirit lives after death.

  Matt 22:32 "... God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

  There are at least another 11 scriptural references supporting that we are souls/spirits after death ... I can post these much later. Essentially, if we analysed the usage of the word "death" or "perdition" they do not mean extinction but a change of condition: Luke 15:24 "For this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."

  Next, we believe in a Heavenly Kingdom:

  1. The Lord teaches it Matt 4: 17

  2. The disciples teach it. Matt 10:7

  3. The thief enters paradise Luke 23:43

  4. Paul is carried off into paradise 2 Cor 1:3-4

  5. Paul is looking forward to a heavenly kingdom. 2 Tim 4:18

  6. A heavenly residence has been prepared for the faithful. 2 Cor 5:1

  7. Our inheritance is of a heavenly nature, 1 Peter 1:4

  8. The destination of the faithful is heaven. Heb 13:14

  9. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob desire the heavenly kingdom. Heb 11:13-16

  10. The Lord has prepared a place for the faithful in Heaven. Matt 25:34. John 14:2-3 and Eph 2:5-6

  11. Our treasures are kept in heaven. Matt 6:20, Matt 19:21 and Heb 10:34

  12. Heaven is our eternal state. 2 Cor 4:18
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  ProdigalSon

  Good job ixthis! Ecclesiastes 12:7 is a biggie.... but check out verse 6 and the "silver cord".....

  The NDE and the Silver Cord

  http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research12.html
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  ixthis

  ProdigalSon - Not finished ... it takes time to type it out.

  Since the person who started this thread is not interested in a structured response and a pot of opinions, then my personal belief is that man is different from the angels and animals because angels have a spirit and a soul but no body, and animals have a spirit and a body but no soul, only man has body, soul, and spirit and that the spirit is the "life", that which animates, while the soul is that which is "aware".

  Also, the best differential is that the spirit is a part of the human soul. The presence of the spirit is what differentiates the soul of a man from the soul of an animal - it is what makes the soul of a man immortal (for the spirit is by nature immortal) but the soul of a beast, lacking the spirit is mortal (that is it passes away). The spirit is the highest part of the soul and it is the point of contact between the physical world and the spiritual world.

  I do not believe that the soul is pre-existent. It is created by God, and it enlivens a body -- the body is the instrumentality of the soul, and the soul's separation from the body in death is a tragic consequence of sin.
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  PSacramento

  In my view:

  In the OT, the soul was what humans had when they were "infused" with the Spirit of God ( and they became living souls).

  In the NT, with the exposure to the "soul" of ancient greek thought, the soul and spirit became "interchangeable" and that is where we get the misconception of an immortal soul when it really means an immortal spirit.

  When we die our spirits returns to God, the body decomposses and is no more.

  At the appointed time our Bodies will be ressurected and Our spirits return to them and we will, again, being a living soul but with these "new and improved" resurrected bodies, we will be immortal and there will be a new world for Our bodies and spirit.

  In short, there is life after death and then there is life AFTER life after death.
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  Band on the Run

  They state that soul ressurection is often translated out of copntext w/Jewish 1st century belif. I lack the background to know myself. I am curious what people think w/o necessarily validating by scripture. The WT society - I don't care. Individuals matter.
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  trevor

  My view of life after death or non-life after death is a much larger muddle.

  It's not just you - Band on the Run.

  Despite the millions of worldwide opinions, spanning many thousands of years, nobody actually actually has a clue. Despite the tapestry of faiths, innuendo, hope, suggestion and sometimes for the brave, certain belief, we are no nearer knowing what the hell we are doing on this planet than the average chimpanzee.

  We may pass this way more than once or be on our way to heaven, but I wouldn't put money on it!
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  designs

  Stephen Hawkings weighed into the Heaven issue recently, his answer No.
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  AGuest

  I would like to comment, dear BOTR, if I may (peace to you!). This is my understanding as I received it from my Lord (not preaching, just saying and giving credit where due):

  The soul is the body/vessel and can be living or dead. A living soul (a vessel that has spirit in it)... or a dead soul (a vessel with a spirit in it, the spirit having [been] removed). Thus, all things with the potential to live... human, beast, plant... are souls. It is the soul... the body/vessel... that returns to the dust.

  The spirit, on the other hand, is the "being" or life force INSIDE the vessel. It is what BREATHES... so that the body/vessel takes in and expels air (breathes, literally). That's why it's often referred to as "wind" (pneuma, ruach, etc.).

  When the vessel dies, the spirit must vacate it, as a spirit cannot reside in a dead body/vessel (soul)... but only in a LIVING soul.

  A soul (body/vessel) can be made of flesh... with its blood (hemoglobin)... or flesh... with God's blood (holy spirit). A spirit, however, whether it be human, beast, or plant... is made of the same thing, whether it exists in a vessel of flesh... or a vessel of spirit.

  The vessel/body of flesh is corruptible (i.e., it can hold sickness, disease, aging, and death IN its composition)... thus it is mortal. It can/will die. The vessel/body of spirit is INcorruptible (sickness, disease, aging, death have no part with nor can permeate it)... thus, it is IMmortal. It cannot/will not die.

  The SPIRIT (or life force) that resides IN the soul... cannot die. It must be destroyed. For the most part, when it leaves the body/soul, the lion's share of it returns to the Source, Most Holy One of Israel. However, a tiny modicum remains with the body (if that is not destroyed by fire). This modicum in very minute and not enough for such ones to come to full life again, but only to allow them to be "awoken" for very rare and brief periods. And they can awaken by anyone with the "power" or "authority" to do so (which is why psychic and medium activity is prohibited for Israel).

  For some, this minute bit of life goes with them (in their bones) to the world of the dead. For others, it goes "under the altar" which is a place of protection FOR such lives in the spirit realm.

  The soul and spirit are not synonymous, dear one. They are two separate elements that make up living things. One is the person (the spirit) and the other is the "house" or vessel (the soul) in which the person "resides" or "dwells."

  Because these two have been mistaken to be interchangeable, there are many scriptures and verses in the Bible that don't make a great deal of sense. If, however, one could discern... or hear the Holy Spirit when he states... which is which, a whole LOT of things would become a great deal clearer. A whole lot.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Band on the Run

  And in the year of our Lord 2011, while smoking drug laced weed, Christ came to me through my TV set and told me to tell the world the following:

  Whatever.

  So I am commission apostles to carry the great news througout Earth, Vulcan and Klingnon, while skipping Deep Space Nine.

  Have a pleasant evening.