I need a JW & a Christian please.

NomadSoul

Alright, bare with me. I searched the forum for a similar topic but I didn't find any.

If you know of such a thread please let me know. If not I need a JW and a Christian to debate the following topic:

When did Jesus become the Messiah?

Deputy Dog

When did Jesus become the Messiah?

Before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4

oompa

since god is all knowing i guess it was the instant he created him.....oompa

snowbird

I agree with Deputy Dog - see Genesis 3:15.

The WT teaches that He became the Messiah at His baptism.

Syl

NomadSoul

Doesn't the Watchtower teach that Christ didn't become the Messiah till he got baptized?

Deputy Dog

Luke 2:11 can be used to show he was already Messiah at or before his birth.

Luk 2:11 For there is born to you, this day, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord. (HNV)

Luk 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (NASB)

tec

Um... I would answer that He was ALWAYS the Messiah. Just not revealed to us until He came to us as the Son of Man.

Tammy

NomadSoul

I posted my comment before I saw yours snowbird. So that's what I thought.

ixthis

Commentary by an Eastern Orthodox Christian:

Jesus Christ was always the "Messiah" ... He IS the "Word" - the second person of the Holy Trinity - thus He has always existed with the Father and with the Holy Spirit ...

The entire Old Testament is a collection of prophetic books that "announce" and "prepare" humanity to receive the Word in "the flesh"...

So, He becomes "the Word" incarnate at the moment that the Mother of God, the Theotokos, accepts the invitation from the Archangel Gabriel - Luke 1:26 (this is known as "The Annunciation" feast and celebrated March 25 on the Orthodox Liturgical calendar):

The Hymns (from the early church) that are sung on this date are:

Today is the beginning of our salvation,
The revelation of the eternal mystery!
The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin
As Gabriel announces the coming of Grace.
Together with him let us cry to the Theotokos:
Rejoice, O Full of Grace,
The Lord is with You!

"Today is the beginning of our salvation", says the hymn, that is the beginning of the "Messiah" role in the flesh. Thus, it is the Annunciation that is the point that God the Word is "Messiah", He "saves us" at the point He takes on our nature and unites it to His nature - to save us from death.

Cold Steel

Jesus was forordained before the world was. In the grand council he was named the "Anointed One" and when he was born into mortality he learned just like the rest of us, line upon line, precept upon precept. Even though he was perfect, his greatest temptation was to shy away from doing what he had to do, and that was taking upon himself the sins of the world. In the end, he did the will of the Father and carried out what he had been foreordained to do.

Even the Father could not have forgiven Mankind without a blood sacrifice. It was a law of justice that even he could not ignore. Had he been able to remove the "bitter cup," he surely would have done it. This means that there are laws that even God must adhere to. If he did not follow them, he would cease to be God.

Controversial as this is, the Muslims would be right if God could just wipe away the need for such a sacrifice.

I need a JW & a Christian please.

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