Luke 16:22-23? Explain this to me!

by tabande1 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Ozzie,

    You asked: Shouldn't that be either an allegory or a parable?

    A parable is simply a story which illustrates a moral or religious lesson. There are several different kinds of parables, one of which is an allegory. Most of Jesus' parables were not meant to be understood as allegories and are not classified as such by Bible scholars. Most of them are classified as "object lessons." Others were simple similes. ("The kingdom of heaven is like...") However, some of Jesus' parables were clearly meant to be understood as allegories, such as his parable of "the wheat and the weeds," which Jesus himself explained as an allegory. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43)

    Obviously there is some debate about whether or not "the rich man and Lazarus" should be understood allegorically. Some people, like Tab here, insist that it was not a parable at all, but an actual historical account.

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    JWs say it is just a parable and that of course, Jesus wasn't refering to hell because it doesn't exist. But circular reasonig never got them anywhere and it won't work here either ;)
    Even if it is a parable it would be a parable to illustrate truth. If hell doesn't exist why would Jesus use a story about it to illustrate truth? What truth was he illustrating if it wasn't hell?
    It is considered unlikely to be a parable in it's context however because in no parable did jesus ever use real names of real people. Lazarus was a real person. Also, Jesus always said when he was using parables where as right here he does not.

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    the burning hell myth is of persian origin. what i want to know is why jesus wouldve used persian mythology to teach truth. the more you try to sanctify this as inerrant scripture, the less sense it makes.

    mox

  • logical
    logical

    Tabande, you are mistaken in thinking Luke is scripture. Luke 1:1-5 (and Acts 1:1) show how his account was inspired, by man and not spirit.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Adonai,

    You wrote: If hell doesn't exist why would Jesus use a story about it to illustrate truth?

    Good question. I tend to think He would not.

    You asked: What truth was he illustrating if it wasn't hell?

    You might find my first post in this thread interesting.

    You wrote: It is considered unlikely to be a parable in it's context however because in no parable did jesus ever use real names of real people.

    This is hardly a convincing argument. Especially when we consider the fact that Jesus did not assign a personal name to the "rich man." And also when we consider the meaning of the Name "Lazarus." Again, I refer you to my first post in this thread.

    You wrote: Also, Jesus always said when he was using parables where as right here he does not.

    This is not correct. To find out why you can read my fourth post in this thread.

    Hold on to your faith. Our King is coming.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Moxy,

    I don't believe in a literal Hell. Very few Christians really do, as even most Christians who believe in the traditional concept of "Hell" will admit that the flames of "Hell" are symbolic of the suffering a person who is forever seperated from God will experience. However, I doubt that even if that concept was first put into words and writing in ancient Persia, that fact alone proves the traditional concept of "Hell" is in error.

    Some say that the idea that our earth revolves around the sun and not vise versa is of Polish origin. (Copernicus was a Polish astronomer who lived in about the year 1500) And, as I well know being part Polish, some people do not speak too highly of the the Polish intellect. : ) However, regardless of the place of this idea's origin, we know the idea is true.

  • tabande1
    tabande1

    aChristian and Moxy, Hell is a real place in the center of the earth. I don't care who and when it was talked about in ancient times, Jesus said it was and so I believe it. The End!

    Logical, what? I don't understand your comment/question.

    If we call ourselves christians, shouldn't we take that which crist has said and hold it dear to our hearts. Why would he say the rich man lifted his eyes in "hell" if there were no Hell?

    If you all don't accept that there is no actual place as Hell, then explain to me what was meant when in the book of Revelation, John said that "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"? That is Rev. 20: 14.

    Adonai438, Amen!

  • Flaming Seraphim
    Flaming Seraphim

    This parable is about the Kingdom of God being taken away from Israel and being given to the Gentiles.

    Please see ~
    http://www.tentmaker.org/topics/hell.html

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Is there life after death?

    A contentious analysis of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus against Jehovah's Witnesses.

    The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has always been a thorn in the side of the Witnesses, as it seems at first reading to naturally assume the survival of the soul after death. According to the traditional Christian explanation, the characters involved - if not literal - definitely represent individual people, not groups of people. The story is so well-known that the Watchtower Society was forced to provide a detailed explanation.

    They consider the story to be entirely symbolic to cut off any reference to the soul and hellfire. Charles Taze Russell argued that Abraham's bosom, taken literally, could not be large enough for all Lazarus. However, this objection is shallow, as Abraham's bosom is depicted as large as there are people there, so the story is about a single Lazarus, not many. Then he says it is impossible to believe that the rich man went to a place of torment because of his wealth, and Lazarus was saved because of his poverty. But this is not a decisive argument, as the text does not talk about the reasons, only the fate of the two people.

    According to them, "Jesus uses the rich man to illustrate the Jewish religious leaders," and "the beggar Lazarus illustrates those people who are denied proper spiritual nourishment and privileges by the religious leaders" (Greatest Man, Part 88). And what does the death of the two people "illustrate"? "Starting with the preaching of [John the Baptist] and Jesus, both the rich man and Lazarus die to their previous state or circumstances." This peculiar explanation relies on Luke 16:16, which precedes the parable by several verses, stating that "The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God is preached" - expressing the great change in circumstances. The needs of Lazarus-like humble people are now met by the scriptural truths mediated by Jesus, so they no longer need the "crumbs falling from the spiritual table of the religious leaders." The latter are in "symbolic torments" because they "stubbornly refused the Kingdom message taught by Jesus."

    The only thing that can be opposed to this interpretation is that there is a clear shift between Luke 16:16 and the Lazarus parable, with two discourses inserted in between: about the full validity of the law and about divorce. Only then does Lazarus come. It is therefore an excessive boldness to connect as evidence what the Lord himself chose to speak separately. Nevertheless, here it is only an opinion against an opinion, so this explanation seems contrived to the reader who grew up on the traditional interpretation, but there is no blatant heresy in it.

    The inaccuracy of the Watchtower explanation becomes clear from the fact that it cannot embrace the whole parable; and it turns the punchline into a meaningless appendix at the end of the parable. According to the Brooklyn headquarters, the torments described here are nothing more than "God's fiery judgment messages, proclaimed by Jesus' disciples," and the "rich man class" asks them to stop "proclaiming judgment messages." It would be appropriate now to clarify what kind of "judgment messages" the apostles proclaimed - because as far as I know, they preached the Gospel. Even to those who previously belonged to the "rich man class" (Acts 2:23). There is a serious inconsistency in the Witnesses' explanation: if there is no conversion after "symbolic death" ("the great chasm illustrates God's unchangeable, just judgment"), then why did Peter preach the forgiveness of sins to those who, in his opinion, "crucified Jesus with their sinful hands"? According to the explanation in the "Greatest Man," "the change takes place on Pentecost 33 A.D., a few months later, when the Old Covenant is replaced by the New Covenant." Well, then why did Paul still preach repentance to the Jews (Acts 28:23)? We cannot use the loophole that during the great change, the "rich man class" still had to be offered a choice - because this argument undermines the finality and "symbolic death" nature of the change. What kind of "symbolic death" is it during which one can repent? It seems that Jehovah's Witnesses have created purgatory independently of the Roman Catholics. Furthermore, according to the Watchtower, preaching is a "judgment message" for the "rich man class" - how can it also be an opportunity for them to repent?

    In conclusion, the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is fraught with inconsistencies and contrivances that make it difficult to fully accept their explanation. The traditional understanding of the parable, which assumes the survival of the soul after death and offers a more straightforward reading, remains a valid perspective for many.

    I would like to note in passing that only something with a literal meaning that is obvious to everyone and contains no internal contradictions can be used as a symbol. Listeners can only understand the underlying meaning if the literal interpretation evokes something in them, allowing them to infer the invisible spiritual reality. And what are we talking about here? Death and torment. If death is symbolic and the torments are also symbolic (as the book "The Greatest Man" claims), then the parable can only be complete if evildoers suffer literal torments after literal death. Otherwise, the Lord would have used a false image as the starting point for his teaching (the rich man tormented in the flames of Hades after his death). His teaching would then have no basis in reality: he would have based his message on a false statement. This is, of course, an impossibility – so the error lies in the teaching of the Watchtower.

    The older explanation by Russell was as follows: The rich man represents the Jewish people, and the Gentile Christians represent Lazarus. While the Jews often begged the nations to alleviate the flames of their persecution, this was not possible. This could still be discussed in 1916, but a year later, the demarcation of the State of Israel began, and since 1946, Jews have been migrating back to the promised land en masse – undoubtedly due to the decisions of the great powers. So much for Russell's confident explanation.

    But the Lord did not finish with this. He gave the parable an ending in which the Witnesses' knife breaks badly. The rich man asks Abraham to let Lazarus go and bear witness to his father's house and his five brothers. We see a clumsy explanation from the Brooklyn "faithful and wise servant," which says, "the rich man here openly admits that he has a closer relationship with another father, who is Satan, the Devil." What kind of evasion is this? The Pharisees did not "openly admit" before or after Jesus' resurrection that their father was the devil, and they did not plead with the "Greater Abraham," i.e., Jehovah, to end their torments. They did not feel any torment at all, although the rich man in the story was clearly suffering.

    The Watchtower is playing a reverse game with the element that the rich man did not even know about the existence of the great chasm – because they "interpret" this chasm as the Pharisees being unable to convert. But what kind of twisted concept of conversion is it that someone wants to convert, knows how to do it, but cannot? It is ridiculous to try to justify this by referring to the Pharisees' fear of losing their livelihood, as they were such fierce enemies of Christ precisely because they were the "blind leading the blind." They did not oppose Him because they feared bankruptcy for their religious enterprise, but because they sincerely believed they were right. I wonder how ordinary Witnesses can accept such a theory from the Brooklyn headquarters – they must have to twist their Bibles upside down for that.

    And it also needs to be explained why the rich man himself could not go to his brothers? I repeat: the rich man class is allegedly on earth and suffers torments there. He wants to repent but cannot (this assumption already contradicts the message of the New Testament, which says that now is the "time of refreshing," the "day of salvation"). But why can't he get up from his place (on earth), walk down the paved street on his own two feet, and tell his "religious allies" with his own mouth about the torments he is suffering? Why did he want to send Lazarus to his brothers – the very Witnesses who tormented him? It's even worse that Lazarus couldn't go either – so Jehovah's Witnesses shouldn't bear witness to their "religious allies," lest they convert! Witnesses have always been proud of their logic: well, let them untangle this knot if they can.

    Russell identifies the rich man and his five brothers with the two main Palestinian Jewish tribes, Judah and Benjamin, as well as the other tribes scattered in the diaspora, which is appealing but historically false: the other tribes didn't just disperse, their tribal identity ceased to exist. Nevertheless, we don't hear about Palestinian Jews following the spreading Christianity with great conversion intentions, as they were constantly hindering the spread of the word. If we stick to Russell's casting, we should rather talk about the rich man jumping out of the fiery hell without asking permission and starting to beat Lazarus with a whistle because he dared to go to the five brothers to warn them of the danger.

    And further, Abraham replied to the rich man, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them listen to them." So there is conversion after all; but for whom? According to the Watchtower, the five brothers represent the "religious allies" of the rich man class. Well, I respectfully ask: why didn't the "symbolic death" affect these "allies"? Didn't the new covenant apply to them? How did they earn this exceptional "third way" of staying with Moses and the Prophets while Christ's disciples carried the alleged "judgment messages" to the "ends of the earth"? This is a tricky question.

    And the Lord, as if deliberately speaking this parable against Jehovah's Witnesses, continued: the rich man requested Lazarus' resurrection, thinking that the miracle would convince his erring brothers. This is the point where the these Bible Researchers' knowledge fails. Even the otherwise ingenious and resourceful Brooklyn teaching office remains silent at this point. For how could the previous, compulsive interpretation be forced onto what is said here? If "symbolic death" is a transition from the old covenant to the new, then "resurrection" logically means returning to the law. However, this is such a mental triple salto that even the "faithful and wise servant" would stumble, so they remain silent. But the question awaits an answer: why does the Lord mention resurrection here? The commentary escapes into generalities: "So God does not give special signs or miracles to convince people."

    This is true, but a resurrection is only a "sign" or "miracle" if taken literally. So, Abraham denied nothing but Lazarus' bodily resurrection to the rich man. That is, Lazarus literally died, not just symbolically. However, neither Lazarus nor the rich man represents entire "classes" of people, but rather individuals, even if they are fictional, allegorical figures. So we have come to the conclusion that human consciousness remains after physical death. Thus, the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses that the whole person is destroyed at physical death has been refuted.

    I presented this line of thought to several Jehovah's Witnesses who rang my doorbell (and were increasingly more educated), but all I achieved was that they no longer visited.

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