Fact of the matter is, regardless of how WE NOW view it, the 1st generation or so of Christians DID view Christs sacrifice as a sacrifice on par with the slaughtering of the "sacrifical lamb", all the sins of the world were put on Christ and he carried them and in his physical death, they were paid for and in His ressurrection, we are given God's grace so that NO MORE sacrifices of this type are needed.
Q for all Christians (not just JW) about the ransom.
by Anony Mous 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
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corpusdei
God freely wants to extend forgiveness and mercy
if the greatest commandment is to love God supremely with our whole being, then the greatest sin is to not do so.
These statements are mutually exclusive.
Faith is a condition of salvation
And this cuts to the heart of the matter. The ultimate requirement is faith, worship of Him. Moral choices, good works, well-treatment of the world and your fellow-man - none are adequate to gain salvation unless you add faith and worship and love of God.
The freedom and will to have great good and love implies the equal necessity to be able to misuse this gift of will for great evil or selfishness. The alternative is robotics who cannot love, relate, be responsible, etc.
But by the argument you've laid out, with love of God being a condition of salvation, then God does not appreciate free will when it is used to make the choice, not to commit any morally objectional behavior or break any other tennent of His law, but simply not to worship or love Him. By doing so, the Ransom is not an free act of generosity and loving kindness. That sacrifice and offer of redemtion does come with a price, but the cost is to us, not to Him.
We are not condemned because Adam sinned, but because we personally sin (Rom. 1-3).
I return to my argument that inherited sin is an unjustified punishment of mankind and the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus is God offering a conditional pardon, calling it magnanimous and expecting praise for the entire business. By creating that requirement that Redemption is unavailable not for a sinful act but for the lack of worship, the act of worship becomes not an selfless act of of a loving creation for our loving Creator but the coin with which we buy Redemption, else we face the eternal death that comes with the lack of it. We are condemned, not because we sin, but because we do not bend our knee to Him.
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corpusdei
We are condemned, not because we sin, but because we do not bend our knee to Him.
I do want to make a distinction here between abstaining from worship as simply the lack of worship, and abstaining from worship because of the sin of Pride, of thinking that we are better than God, which was the sin of Lucifer.
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djeggnog
@Anony Mous:
So this is the basic logical flaw in Christianity I believe. A brother identified it from the stage for me in a talk. We all agree (as Christians and JW's) that the ransom was necessary because Adam lost his perfection and everlasting life....
This makes no sense, why give somebody else grief for thousands of years if you're going to give yourself the money anyway (this is what the brother said)....
My thoughts: Why go through all the trouble to kidnap somebodies everlasting life and demand a ransom that cannot be paid by the victims of your kidnapper just so you can give your victims grief and pay yourself back thousands of years later without any real benefit to anyone....
The question remains: Why is God credited with being both the giver and receiver of the atonement sacrifice, it doesn't make sense to give to yourself while letting others suffer at your hands. Another question that flows from it: Why was the atonement necessary? Or was the atonement paid to somebody else (which would make more sense) but then to whom.
Our parents sinned and as their punishment they died thus completing their punishment. However we are being punished for their error as well which we can't change thus the punisher provided a symbolic receiver of the penalty but chose not to receive it right then and there but wait a little over 2000 years and let countless others suffer?
If the above makes sense to you, please explain it to me.
You say that "we all agree ... that the ransom was necessary," but you say it was "because Adam lost his perfection and everlasting life...." No, that's not the reason the ransom was necessary. The ransom was necessary because we, Adam's offspring, had been sold into sin indefinitely through no fault of our own, and justice dictated that Adam's debt to God be settled before God could have dealings with any of us since we had become estranged from God due to Adam's sin.
For our sakes, God knew in the beginning the way he would make it possible to balance the scales of justice, and he did so through the provision of the ransom. Yes, because of our inherited imperfection, many atrocities have been committed over thousands of years, but Jehovah God is almighty and he raises the dead, no matter how it was we die, and as we learned from Acts 17:31, God had long ago purposed that the inhabited earth, both the living and the dead, would be judged by a man that he had appointed, that man being his son, Jesus Christ, and his resurrection of Jesus from the dead proves that death is not a problem for Jehovah.
Now you may view this as being a problem, but I have faith, in view of the fact that Jesus was raised up, that his bringing the dead back to life is not a problem. Because death doesn't pose a problem for the Most High in that he has given to Jesus the power to raise the death, I tend to spend much of my time worrying about the things over which I do have some control while I have faith that Jesus has control over both "the living and the dead." (John 5:22, 26, 28, 29; 2 Timothy 4:1) Anyway, here's the skinny as I understand it, @Anony Mous:
Adam had gotten himself into debt, so that as surety for a loan, he sold off his future children as slaves to the lender to ensure his repayment of the loan. Adam dies and the debt was not cleared, not satisfied, so now the lender is now obliged to provide care indefinitely for the debts of all of Adam's offspring since they will all need food, clothing and shelter. To defray his expenses, he begins to put them to work as slaves so that they might "earn their keep," as it were, since he is now their master, but remember that all he really wanted was for Adam to pay off the loan, and none of his children are in any position to pay it off since they are all working for their own keep.
Jehovah knows the situation is dire for Adam's children that are born on the plantation, and he knows that together they won't earn enough to pay off Adam's debt, so he gives his son the loan amount so that he can, through Jesus, redeem Adam's offspring, but God knows that the only place that Adam's children have ever known is this plantation, and that many of them will reject release from their state of servitude because they know that such freedom would oblige them to become slaves to a different master, a freedom that comes with conditions, and some, but not all slaves, would be desirous of a accepting freedom with conditions.
Jehovah knew when Adam forfeited his right by Him to eternal life that there would be no one that could pay off his debt unless He provided it in view of the fact that none of Adam's children could inherit that which Adam had forfeited; the right to eternal life would otherwise be forever lost to them. Jehovah gave to his son, Jesus, the assignment of leaving the environs of heaven to become a perfect human being the equal of Adam so that he could lay down his life in death in satisfaction of God's justice, and because he didn't forfeit his right to eternal life by disobedience, as had Adam, but gave up his life willingly, God could thereby accept what Jesus did in satisfaction of justice, thus cancelling Adam's debt, and freeing all of Adam's offspring from servitude to King Sin.
But while Jesus' death paid to God as a ransom has excelling value to all mankind, not everyone that learns about what God has done with the cooperation of Jesus will want to become a recipient of the release obtained by this payment of the ransom, because such freedom is conditioned upon their obediently listening to another master, Christ. King Sin has been a cruel master, but when given a choice, some aren't willing to put faith in serve another master, especially one that is so strict when it comes to morality as is the Lord Jesus Christ. (Like King Jesus, King Sin doesn't condone murder either, but unlike the King Jesus, King Sin condones things like adultery and getting wasted at parties and doesn't view sexting as cheating on one's spouse, as long as these things are kept on the down-low and no one gets hurt.) To put faith in someone means to obey that person, and listening to Jesus isn't something the sons of disobedience are anxious to do.
Many people today, and I'm here speaking specifically about those who were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses, want the freedom of being a slave of Christ, but they don't want it because freedom as a slave of Christ comes with conditions, so they remain slaves of Sin. Jehovah God is the Universal Sovereign, and, as such, he sees the big picture, a picture of which we can only glimpse since he has been alive for eternity and is the one that made us, and knows exactly what we ourselves are, no matter what we might think ourselves to be.
God knew before any of us were born what he was going to do in order to rehabilitate those that wanted freedom from King Sin, so he went on to lay down principles that would serve as a foundation for faith in him, since he knew that our father, Adam, had refused to obey God and that this inclination to disobey divine authority was something with which all of us, Adam's children, were born and needed to be able to resist if they were to ever be set free from sin and corruption, and enjoy the freedom that is already being enjoyed by God's heavenly children.
Teaching us obedience, that is to say, the reason we must listen to God, has taken many thousands of years to be put into writing so that upon Christ's first coming, many lessons having to do with putting faith in God could be taught based on these holy writings, and now, upon Christ's second coming, much more has gone into writing, so that many more lessons having to do with our putting faith in God have been added to these holy writings since we are now very close to God's kingdom government becoming a reality for all mankind.
Let me be clear: Some here don't believe this or refuse to believe, but this is what I believe.
@djeggnog
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Deputy Dog
Anony mous
We all agree (as Christians and JW's) that the ransom was necessary because Adam lost his perfection and everlasting life.
Well no, we don't all agree. Adam lost his innocence in the fall, he was never righteous. I'm not sure what you mean by "perfection" but Adam was far from (righteous) perfection or he could not have sinned. I believe God made Adam so that he would sin, not just that he "could" sin. Cofty I agree with godrulz your view is a strawman (probably for different reasons).
No its a simplified version of the truth. If you think I don't understand the theology in detail read the article.
I did read the article
Reading through the New Testament, it seems clear that when Bible writers refer to the good news, they have in mind the forgiveness and reconciliation that has been made possible through Jesus' sacrifice.
This statement shows a false or unbiblical view. Most reformers understood/understand that Christ's death forgave (completely) the elect, not just made forgiveness and reconciliation "possible". That work was completed on the cross.
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cofty
Most reformers understood/understand that Christ's death forgave (completely) the elect, not just made forgiveness and reconciliation "possible". That work was completed on the cross.
I think you are just misunderstanding what I wrote.
If I said "my release from prison was only possible because somebody paid my fine", does that make it any clearer? I was not implying tha anything in addition to Jesus' death was necessary.
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Deputy Dog
My point is that there is a giant difference between the WT ransom and the atonement of Christ in Christianity.
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cofty
My point is that there is a giant difference between the WT ransom and the atonement of Christ in Christianity.
I know; that was the whole theme of the article and the reason I became a christian
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Deputy Dog
cofty
If you said "my release from prison was only possible because somebody paid my fine", does that make it any clearer?
That makes it clear you believed that there was something other that just paying a fine left to do before you could be released.
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cofty
As I said above...
I was not implying that anything in addition to Jesus' death was necessary.