This Year's Memorial

by TD 33 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  blondie

  *** w66 9/1 pp. 543-544 Questions From Readers ***

  ● Would it be proper to use the expressions “other sheep” (John 10:16) and “great crowd” (Rev. 7:9) interchangeably at all times?—G.S.

  No, this would not be Scripturally fitting. All those making up the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9 are “other sheep,” but not all of the “other sheep” of John 10:16 constitute a part of the “great crowd.” These terms are not wholly synonymous.

  All persons having God’s approval may Scripturally be viewed as sheep. And Jesus Christ said: “I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.” (John 10:15) Whereas there is a “little flock” of 144,000 “sheep” with the prospect of resurrection to heavenly life, many other sheeplike ones have the prospect of life on earth in God’s promised new order. (Luke 12:32; Rev. 14:1-4; Ps. 37:11, 29) All persons with earthly hopes and possibilities are referred to as the “other sheep,” at John 10:16, to distinguish them from those “sheep” who are granted heavenly life. The earthly “other sheep” will include faithful men of old times, like Abraham, David and Daniel. (Heb. 11:8-19, 32-35; Dan. 12:13) Many others resurrected during Christ’s thousand-year reign will prove obedient to God and will thus show that they too are “other sheep” of the Fine Shepherd. This term also applies to the “great crowd” of righteously disposed persons who will live right through the destructive end of this system of things, and to any of their righteous offspring during Christ’s millennial reign.

  So, “other sheep” is a broad term. However, the “great crowd” constitute but a part of the “other sheep” class. Revelation 7:9, 14 tells us: “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. . . . ‘These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” To be noted is the fact that the “great crowd,” who are distinguished from the 144,000 of spiritual Israel, “come out of the great tribulation” marking the “last days.” (Matt. 24:20, 21) The “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9 have not come out prior to ‘the time of the end.’

  Hence, the term “other sheep” takes in all righteously disposed persons with earthly prospects and it includes the “great crowd.” The “great crowd,” however, are only those sheeplike ones with earthly hopes who have associated with Jehovah God’s earthly organization during the time marked by the “great tribulation” attending these last days.
• 

  blondie

  *** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

  Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms “other sheep” and “great crowd”?

  Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.

  Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” The other expression, “great crowd,” appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”

  Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the “little flock.” A flock of what? Of sheep. The “sheep” of the “little flock” will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.

  We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.” Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the “other sheep” of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming “other sheep” of the Fine Shepherd.

  We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed “other sheep,” since they are not part of the “little flock.” Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.

  Now, what can be said about the identity of the “great crowd” mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, “Who are they and where did they come from?” We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” So the “great crowd” is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.

  Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term “great crowd” to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.

  In summary, we might remember “other sheep” as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a “great crowd” with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the “other sheep,” and they are part of the “great crowd” as well.

  It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were “puffed up with pride” and involved in “debates about words.” (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.

  
  
• 

  whathehadas

  The celebration/observance has got to be worse time wasting event ever. Not surprised that it's become more dull over the years. I was invited by family and this nagging elder, who still calls me from time to time though I've moved out the area as fader. I'm just going to tell that guy to stop calling next time, even if I have to spill the beans on my disbelief of the WT. I'll take the D'fed card now. I'm sick of their sh**. Anyways, the memorial should be just for the "anointed" in theory. Save the rest of the "sheep" with this time waste. Will never happen though

  
  
• 

  TD

  Blondie,

  I appreciate you providing the '66 and '95 QFR's. I've talked to a number of xJW's who for some strange reason, seem to think that there is a contradiction between those two articles and what I've said on this thread, so I'm going to elaborate a little bit.
  

  J.F. Rutherford was quite clear that he considered the "Great Crowd" to be identical with "Other Sheep" living during the Christian Era. (cf. The Watchtower 1935 p. 236, 250, The Watchtower 1936 p. 117, 123, 131, 139; Riches p. 309, 332, 333, etc., etc., etc.)

  As he said himself: "...God revealed to them that Jonadab, the "other sheep" and the "great multitude" are one and the same company."

  Modern JW literature has not been the least bit shy about affirming this both explicitly, implicitly; by inclusion and exclusion.

  Here are some explicit statements:

  "It was Scripturally explained that the "great crowd" ("great multitude," King James Version) refers to the "other sheep" who live during the time of the end." (The Watchtower February 15, 2003 p. 19)

  "Those of the other sheep gathered in the time of the end will make up the "great crowd" destined to survive "the great tribulation," with the prospect of living forever on a paradise earth." (The Watchtower February 1, 2002 p. 21)

  "Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John." (Isaiah's Prophecy: Light For All Mankind Vol. II p. 255)

  "In a stirring talk on "The Great Multitude," delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J.F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day "other sheep" are identical with that "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9 (John 10:16) (The Watchtower May 15, 2001 p. 15)

  "In 1935 this group of "other sheep" were discerned to be the "great crowd..out of all nations seen in vision by the apostle John." (The Watchtower January 1, 2000, p. 12)

  "However, the other sheep living in the time of the end were prophesied to grow to be a "great crowd, which no man was able to number..." (The Watchtower February 15, 1995 pp. 19-20)

  "So it was seen that this prophecy referred to the numberless great crowd from all nations who are now being gathered and whose hopes are earthly. They are "the sheep" of Matthew 25:31-46 and the "other sheep" of John 10:16." (The Watchtower May 15, 1995 p. 20)

  "J.F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with the great crowd of Revelation 7:9." (Revelation: It's Grand Climax At Hand! pp. 120-122)

  Here are some implicit statements:

  "With consciences cleansed, anointed Christians render "sacred service to the living God." And so do the great crowd." (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy p. 267)

  "They also discerned that the Bible holds out two destinies - a heavenly one for the 144,000 anointed footstep followers of Christ and a paradise earth for an unnumbered "great crowd" of "other sheep." (The Watchtower May 15, 1995 p. 18)

  "Would anointed Christians be the only ones to enjoy the blessings promised to Abraham? No, for Jesus sacrifice benefits the whole world. (1 John 2:2) In time, Jehovah revealed that an unnumbered "great crowd" would survive the end of Satan's system." (Draw Close To Jehovah p. 197)

  "Jesus disciples entertain one of two hopes. First, a "little flock" numbering 144,000 has been gathered.....Second, in the last days, "a great crowd of "other sheep" have manifested themselves." (Isaiah's Prophecy: Light For All Mankind Vol II pp. 241, 242)

  
  

  It's possible for someone to read either the '66 or the '95 QFR and come away with the idea that "Other Sheep" can exist apart from "Prospective" members of the "Great Crowd" in the Christian Era.

  However that idea is explicitly contradicted by the JW teaching that "Other Sheep" did not exist in the Christian Era at all until at or around the time that the "Great Crowd" was identified:

  "First, Jesus gathers an anointed "little flock" who become joint heirs with him in the Kingdom of the heavens. After this, "a great crowd" are gathered to survive "the great tribulation." coming out of it to inherit everlasting life in the realm of God's Kingdom on earth." (The Watchtower January 1, 1995 p. 4)

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government." (The Watchtower February 15, 1982, p. 30)

  "For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purpose." (United In Worship Of The Only True God p. 111)

  Again, JW's lose their status as "Prospective" members of the "Great Crowd" through accidents, illness and other forms of untimely death. Claiming the existence of "Modern-Day Other Sheep" who were not "Prospective" members of the "Great Crowd" even when they were alive is an altogether different thing and that is the theological precipice the JW organization is teetering on as the years continue to go by.