I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Ding
    Ding

    Christians were a "little flock" in Jesus' day, all of them.

    To the WT, the other sheep are all JWs who aren't of the 144,000.

    In fact, the other sheep are the Gentiles.

    John 10:16: "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." (Notice, ONE flock, not two)

    Ephesians 3:4-6: "In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

    Romans 11:11-18: "Again I ask: Did they [Israel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    The hope I see is not the realm, but the life, everlasting existence.
    So the "hope" is shared by the whole flock, life and freedom.

    This hope is not singular according to WTS doctrine numbersandletters . . . not even by a stretch

    One flock resides as spirits in heaven . . . the other as flesh on earth

    One flock assumes immortality . . . the other doesn't

    One flock rules as kings . . . the other are subjects

    The earthly hope is not necessarily "everlasting" as Satan must perform his final test at the end of the 1000 years.

    While on earth one flock accepts the memorial emblems as directed by Christ . . . the other passes it by.

    They are not "one flock - one shepherd" at all . . . they are two distinct groups . . . according to WTS

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    What mysticism?

    You need to do some research on the symbolic use of the number 144000 in Rev . . . outside of WTS publications.

    Thats "20571.428571", the dots,"."_'s are often a parsing constraint for some system's user names allowance.

    Thank you for the explanation

  • flipper
    flipper

    I have other sheep - who are scared of JW men. Go figure

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    John 10:16 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    Let's examine the timeline. Jesus was still here, alive on Earth when he spoke these words. He says they (other sheep) will become one flock with the "sheep" he is currently talking to (Jews). He will be the "one shepherd" to this "one flock".

    Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    v 14 says, "who has made the two groups one". It doesn't get much clearer than this.

    Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    One hope. For Christians. Perhaps the 144,000 can be interpreted another way?

    2. The issue Satan raised was on earth, and every one abandoming earth, is not the way to settle the issue, in fact Jesus settled it in the flesh, and when Satan is released he will be tempting flesh for heaven is incorruptible in Jesus Kingdom 144000 immortals, and heaven is death free.

    No one said everyone abandons Earth. But it seems to me that giving a select few immortality, when we are all sinful, doesn't sound fair.

    Especially to those Christians that have to suffer every bit as much as supposed "anointed" have had to suffer.

    Maybe the New Covenant is simply "off limits" to those that never got to participate i.e., Jews, people that never heard the Gospel, etc.? That would sure fill up a lot of the Earth, wouldn't it?

    As for Hebrews 5:9, ...he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him...

    Really? It says, "to all those obeying him". So Christians don't have to obey Christ while here on Earth to obtain their crown? First I heard of that. And it's the first time I hear of such a grand misapplication of scripture. Honestly.

    And Romans 8:19-25 certainly does distinguish two groups, yet you have not one shred of evidence to indicate it is speak of two "Christian" groups. The "creation" may well be those that didn't participate of the "New Covenant". It fits quite well.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Well, some thoughtful reflection on scripture. Great. This is encouraging. But try this one on for size:

    Think of Christendom as the "spiritual" chosen people. Then reflect that even within the 12 tribes, there was one tribe set aside for a special temple service, the tribe of Levi.

    Well, in simple terms, the WTS is like the "temple in its right condition" compared to the rest of Christendom. Even so, in the end, that temple sect becomes apostate, producing the "man of lawlessness" which is the current apostate GB. But most of the NT parables are focussed on this temple sect, the sect that produces the "evil slave."

    Now, the parable of the wheat and weeds is about the WTS and how corrupt it became from the very beginning. This reflects the attempt to make russell the "Faithful and Wise Servant" and the "angel of Laodicea" and all that Freemasonry Satantic pyramidology that Russell introduced. Thus even before the new blades of wheat were present, that is, early in the growth of this organization, the "weeds" were there two. Now this presented a dilemma. That of removing the weeds now or later. The decision was to remove the weeds at the time of the harvest, that is, at the time of the second coming. So you have other parables that speak of Christ coming to separate the "sheep from the goats" which parallels his separating the "wheat from the weeds" specific to this organization. The reason for not separating the weeds early was so that no wheat would be lost.

    So this "little flock" are the true anointed ones in this flock, representing the sheep. The false "weeds" or "tares" within the WTS are the goats.

    But here's the fun part. If Christ comes in and gathers his little flock from among the goats and abandons the organization and the "evil slave", then who are the "other sheep"? Well, if you will recall, the "evil slave" is just one of ten slaves sent out to do business and increase the Lord's wealth. It was the evil slave that buried the coin and simply returned it, not even putting it in a bank where it could have drawn interest. (BTW, interesting they had BANKS that charged INTEREST even in Jesus' day! That's interesting, historically...) The main point, again, here, is that the evil slave was just one of several sent out. So the "other sheep" are those being gathered by those other 11 slaves.

    Now doesn't that make sense? The WTS becomes apostate. Christ comes to remove the true sheep, which is a little flock, and brings them to where he has other sheep in a different fold. That other fold, a larger fold, of course, would be the fold/s of the other 11 slaves sent out to do business.

    Now on a technical basis, if you will note in the parable of the ten slaves, the slave that has the most increase, that is, a 10-fold increase, receives the coin returned by the evil slave. So that's literal. In the true spiritual world, Christ's followers are part of secret societies. They are represented by the woman who gives birth to the messiah in Revelation who has a place prepared for her in the "wilderness" by Jehovah, "away from the face of the dragon." The "wilderness" represents secret socities and things underground, not in the open. Of course, this means they do not meet formally in public and thus there is no way Satan and his spy organizations can then infiltrate them and try to corrupt them.

    From among these secret socities, one is said to have a 10-fold increase and another 5-fold. The one with the 10-fold increase is the one who inherits that coin or that "little flock" brought out of the WTS. In another setting, the "two witnesses" are those secret societies that have the 10-fold and the 5-fold increase. These "two witnesses" secret socities join together to prepare for the specifics of the second coming. Meaning, basically, the faithful "five virgins" who are the "little flock" are inducted into the 10-fold secret society, the largest of the various "ministries" sent out by Christ to do business at the beginning of the "last generation" in 1914.

    Another reference, for those who can follow this. If you notice the woman who flees from Satan and has a place safe in the "wilderness" away from the face of the dragon is not visible to the dragon. But after trying to drown her with propaganda, unsuccesfully so, he is said to go and wage war with the "remaining ones of her seed." Apparently, he can see them directly. Thus the WTS is the public temple organization, which Satan can attack directly. So what happens is the faithful ones in this public temple organization, who make up the "remaining ones of her seed" whom Satan can directly attack, convert over to the secret underground side of Christ's followers. That is, the 10-fold slave who is a vast secret society network inducts them and they become part of that slave organization. Again, that is represented by this coin entrusted to the WTS being forfeited to the largest of the secret socities, one which also makes up one of the "two witnesses" that are directly involved with the second coming and protecting the messiah after he arrives.

    In the context of Matthew 24, those secret socities are referred to as the "eagles" that watch over the messiah, even before he becomes the Christ. "Wherever the carcass is, so the EAGLES will be gathered together."

    In the context of yet another parable, that of the "ten virgins", you again have a separation of the true and the false followers of Christ. The separation of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins is the same separation within this organization of the sheep and the goats and the wheat and the weeds. Thus the banquet, a private banquet and wedding feast for the Christ represents the secret, underground gathering of Christ's followers who know who he is and who do not acknowledge him openly. The "five wise virgins" join that secret gathering and the wedding feast. The five foolish virgins are locked outside when they arrive late. So in this sense, the five wise virgins, representing the "little flock" of the WTS, join the "other sheep" in the private wedding feast and thus become part of the "eagles" mentioned at Matthew 24. Recount how the woman is said to be given the "wings of the great eagle" to flee to her place. So there is a direct link between this woman who represents Christ's secret followers and the "eagles" who surround the messiah from the time of his birth.

    Again, the JW doctrinal concept that they are the "only true religion" does not work in the context of "other sheep" or different folds. But when you consider the WTS is the "evil slave" it is clear that there are other slaves with approved ministries and who are gathering sheep. Christ has many folds and many sheep that become one flock and one shepherd in the end. But, the WTS is significant in that it is the chosen "temple" sect. So just as the entire nation of Israel is considered "God's chosen people", there still was a special tribe that was set aside for a special sacred service. That special "temple in its right condition" was the Bible Students who became JWs. But, uinfortunately, it became corrupted early on with Freemasonry and Satanism, very clear from the early publications displaying the winged sun disk, and other Freemasonry symbolism including the pyramid, which is symbolic of Satan; the same seeing-eye pyramid on the dollar bill marks the grave site of Russell. So I don't need to elaborate on that; you'll never separate Rusell from Freemasonry or Satanism with that grave marker declaring precisely what is going on in the early WTS!

    So, I hope that wasn't too confusing. But if you just think of the WTS as the "evil slave" then you will have to presume there are at least 9 other faithful "slave" organizations who also exist. They make up the larger body of "other sheep not of this fold" whom the faithful "little flock" are brought to when they are separated from the "goats" in the WTS.

    Again, refer to 2 Thess 2 where you clearly see how the "man of lawlessness" rises up in the house of "THE God" meaning Jehovah's own public house or temple. That temple, like it or not, was the WTS up until 1996. 1996 ends the covenant period. That is:

    490 x 4 = 1960

    490 years ends in 36 CE and begins the "70 weeks" in 455 BCE.

    1960 + 36 = 1996.

    That's enough explanation in rgards to 1996. The covenant with the Jews and JWs ends in 1996.

    Here's a video below I made that touches on this further.

    The WTS, being apostrate is also in spiritual darkness so anything they claim regarding the "other sheep" is not going to be accurate.

    JEWS AND JWS:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0Y

    SUMMARY: Now doesn't that make more sense than all those convoluted other theories? God's temple sect, the WTS, becomes apostate. It is allowed to remain so the true sheep will not be lost. When Christ comes, he separates out the true anointed, the 5 wise virgins, from the others, the goats, and then brings them to where his other true followers are as gathered by the other 9 slaves. Of course, the number "10" represents earthly completeness so it is not specifically 9 other secret organizations, but however many there actually are. The largest of the secret socities induct the "little flock" from the WTS. So the largest sect of the "two witnesses" is active within the WTS. Which brings up my final point. Those who are inducted into the secret society of the 10-fold slave don't necessarily have to physically leave the organization. Many remain and pretend to be loyal witnesses. So you can't tell the difference between a secret anointed one and a loyal witness worshipping the WTS. This reflects on the reference that "two will be in the field, one will be taken and one left behind." That simply means there is no open or physical distinction between the true worshipper and the false worshipper. In fact, that is part of their "cover." If someone suddenly leaves the organization that would be far too obvious to others they might be part of the "eagles" now. So many simply stay and pretend.

    So this is something else that is true per the Bible and is being fulfilled.

    Again, the easiest way to understand this is to consider the WTS as the "evil slave" organization and the "man of lawlessness" that comes out of God's own temple, his own house! Once that is established, then you can see Christ sent out 9 other slaves to do business and thus there are other ministries under which Christ is gathering his sheep, "other sheep not of this fold," a very simple concept. Those faithful anointed among JWs, the "little flock" are inducted from the public temple organization, into the secret society of the 10-fold slave organization, which is the largest secret society and which makes up one of the "two witnesses" who is active in manipulating events to fascilitate the logistics of the messiah at the second coming. Because of this, the 10-fold slave is very active as an underground anointed cult within the WTS and many of its members are active witnesses.

    Now I'll add one final note here. When the Bible says that Christ sends out his angels to gather the elect, that will include the "wise virgins" or the "little flock" from among JWs. While some of these angels are invisible, some are not! That is, many materialize into physical bodies and pretend to be human. That's why I really don't worry about being assasinated or anything. I'm protected by both the "two witnesses" who give me warnings and who convolute any schemes by Satan's organizations to try to entrap me, but also angels directly interfere with whatever Satan's agencies are up to, so there is no way anything stragegic will happen to me that is not within Jehovah's permissive allowance. Satan and his organizations are permitted to do only so much.

    Well, hope that answers your question. If it doesn't, then too bad, because that is the REALITY of what is going on and that is the true fulfillment.

    Take it or leave it.

    Since I'm supposed to be the messiah, this is the official version, so I don't see that anyone has much choice, even though, clearly, my explanation makes far more sense than those other explanations, right? I hope you can see that.

    Thanks for posting this link!

    LS

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Tim,

    "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd" — John 10:16

    The other sheep are just mentioned once in scripture in John 10:16 above. The WTS concludes that Jesus was actually saying here:

    "I have other sheep...who I will not be calling until the 20th century. These other sheep will be distinguished in 1935 by Judge Rutherford, president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They are be distinct in that they:

    a. are not part of the New Covenant arrangement

    b. are not members of the body of Christ, the church

    c. are not saints of God

    d. are not adopted sons of God

    e. can not claim Christ as personal Mediator

    f. are not entitled to partake of the emblems of Christ's suffering and death

    g. do not have Christ’s righteousness imputed to them

    h. can not expect to be raised in the resurrection of the first resurrection

    i. will not be justified to life until the close of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

    j. are not Spirit-begotten or indwelt by the Holy Spirit,

    k. do not have a heavenly hope

    l. will not survive Armageddon without affiliation with and faith in the Watchtower Society as God's sole channel of truth to mankind.

    It's all just an extra-biblical self serving spin. You can check out this video for what I believe is the biblical take.

    Demolishing The Watchtower Society's Great Crowd Deception

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    Vanderhoven7 . . . great balanced summary

    I enjoyed the video and concur with this summation of related scriptures.

    "Where the scriptures are silent . . . we should remain silent" . . . great principle, and a scriptual one also. Adhering to it would severly limit the use of the word "evidently".

  • wobble
    wobble

    Adhering strictly to what the Bible actually says, and not adding at all, in other words careful and accurate exegesis, no eisegesis, would destroy all WT/JW unique doctrine.

    In other words "What does the Bible really Teach" would contain only things that are really there, thus emptying most of that pernicious book's content.

  • prologos
    prologos

    the fold was israel, the other sheep the gentiles. the one flock is the 12 tribes of the ISRAEL OF GOD, that has been transfered into the kingdom of the SON of GODS' Love.

    the "anointed" of WT fame are really the "sealed" from the 12 tribes, who, because of their sacrificial death will rule with Christ.

    or so the story goes.

    Wt balled it all up.

    Divide and conquer. for power , then--

    power corrupts.-- now.

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