by transhuman68 15 Replies latest jw friends
LOL. I was reading The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur (Allen & Unwin 2004) and a found a reference to this website: http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jhcjp.htm
An interesting article about the historical Jesus and whether he even existed at all, and if Paul knew of him, or was referring to a mythical-type of Christ.
Personally, I'm starting to think Jesus never existed...
Jesus was probably more like Brian from Monty Python's "Life of Brian".
Shameless bttt from your local attention whore....
Seriously, a good summary of Burton L. Mack & John Shelby Spong's thoughts about Jesus, and a good introduction to Higher Criticism.
When people say that Jesus never existed or wonder about his existence I often ask, how much and waht kind of research have you actually done into the matter?
Historically, and that is hwo one views ANY historical figure, there is quite a bit of evidence for the existence of Jesus as compared to other historical figures.
We could argue about the the evidence, which hardly amounts in truth to any more than there is say for "Robin Hood" or any other mythical figure from the distant past, but it is my humble opinion that such a person as Jesus did exist.
What he actually said and did we have no way of knowing, I find it doubtful that Paul was writing about someone different than the figure who the later mythos, like the Gospels for example, was founded on.
I really must research it more to be sure I am correct, an interesting thread though, thanks.
The fact that Jesus escaped the notice of every secular historian of the first century, with the exception of a blatant interpolation forged into the writings of Josephus, is conclusive evidence that Jesus never did the works in public that the gospels attribute to him. It does not, however, prove that Jesus did not exist. It supports my personal conclusion that he lived a life in the obscurity of the secret society of the Nazarites and that he brought his teaching to a small private group of disciples. He was bringing a secret doctrine teaching the kabbalistic technology of mind over matter that was being suppressed by the Pharisees because it would overturn their status quo, and the enlightened goyim would then overthrow them. This is why John chapter one says that the "Christ" created all things. The human mind is a powerful Co-Creator of reality. This idea can be found throughout Jesus' teachings.
Paul's writings convey quite clearly to me that he was referring to a mythical Christ, especially after learning about the gnostic view. His epistles contain little about the Jesus who came along later in the gospels.
There were actually three different versions of Paul's Road to Damascus vision in the Bible. It was clearly put together later at the Roman Councils to make "Jesus of Nazareth", which apparently wasn't even in existence as a town in the first century, into "God" or the "Son of God" to make all the sheeple think they could never be a "Christ" as Jesus was. It's really stupid because the Bible clearly says that the "Body of Christ" are ALL Christs or "Anointed Ones". They also changed much of Paul's writings, or wrote completely new ones and slapped his name on them, to establish Churchianity as they would see fit to empower the Evil Empire.
But oh yeah... it's all the "Word of God"
RE: historical Jesus
First of all, understand what Historical and historocity means.
These are good for a start:
Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Studying the Historical Jesus) by Robert E. Van Voorst The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary R. Habermas (Jun 3, 1996) Studying the Historical Jesus: A Guide to Sources and Methods by Darrell L. Bock (Jul 1, 2002) The Case for the Real Jesus: A Journalist Investigates Current Attacks on the Identity of Christ by Lee Strobel (Jan 20, 2009) Jesus and the Victory of God (Christian Origins and the Question of God, Volume 2) by N. T. Wright (Aug 1997)
Interesting theory, PS.
Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread- after all, this is an argument that has been raging for over 100 years, and it does depend on which evidence you accept as reliable.
I found it interesting that Paul used the OT so much when writing about Jesus- in the same way the Gospel writers did; rather than writing down the stories that should have been circulating at that time so early in the 1st century if Jesus had been a real person.
First of all, understand what Historical and historocity means.
Secondly, use some unbiased sources, unlike PSac who likes to reference a bunch or hardcore Christians who has a vested interest in proving the JC to be a real sky daddy.
Come on PSac. You are better than that.
They key scene in The Last Temptation of Christ is when a retired Christ, full of so many children he doesn't know what to do, and on his 2nd marriage to Mary II, is when Jesus overhears Paul preaching and goes berserk when he hears Paul's claims. He drags himself from a his sickbed and tells Paul off. But Paul tells him off. It is after this argument with Paul concerning why he must exist, that Jesus stops disassociating and begs God to let him back on the cross. Only, he has always been on the cross, just drugged own from the personal exertion. It was very moving.
I don't agree at all that b/c Paul does not write a gospel, no gospel existed. It assumes too many facts when we know no facts.
I find the apostles clueless and bad examples of humanity until Pentecost. Pentecost transformed them into fighters for Christ. They don't seem to be the same characters.
