Since the government didn't strip the Watchtower of its tax exempt status over the clearly obvious cover-ups of child molestation, I seriously doubt it would do so over discrimination against homosexuals. Very sad, but true. I truly believe that the Watchtower will bring about its own undoing. As society becomes more enlightened, jws will become more and more of a fringe group. There will probably always be some nutcases like my mom hanging onto the organization for dear life, but most people with common sense and internet access will avoid the cult like the plague. Even the majority of born ins are leaving.
The WTS, homosexuality, and the tax code
by sir82 21 Replies latest jw friends
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Quendi
Thanks for the pic, 3dogs1husband, that said it all!
Quendi
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undercover
Conceivable - or just wishful thinking?
Wishful thinking... though worth a discussion.
I have also made the comparison between the civil rights movement and the current gay rights movement. But when it comes to religion, the government is reluctant to get involved in beliefs and doctrine. If a religion, and not just JWs, claims that homosexuality is a sin and to be a member of that faith requires upholding that belief, there's not much the government can do, as long as crimes are not committed. Condemning a lifestyle is not a crime. Refusing membership to someone who doesn't adhere to the full range of beliefs is not a crime.
Forcing a religion to pay taxes if they don't grant gay rights? Why not tax the WTS now for not allowing proper medical care for their children? If denying their members proper medical care which causes death of children doesn't prompt the federal government to intervene, the refusal to accept the gay lifestyle probably won't prompt any response either.
Of course, any religion looking to be seen as forward thinking and open to all people will find a way to "allow" the gay community into their flocks. For religion to continue to flourish, it too has to change with the times. When the gay community becomes part of the community at large, with full rights and advantages of a free society, with only neanderthals and stupid people still "hating" them, then the mainstream religions will find a way to be open and welcoming to all.
Only the stubborn, fundie, bible thumping fringe sects and cults will continue to preach their hatred and claim they're actually the only true god fearing people left in a nation of decadent, doomed to destruction sinners. Which ironically, sort of plays into the WTS' hands. It's another way of demonizing the "world". They'll use the change in culture of acceptance of the gay community as further proof that Satan is ruling the world and that this system is ever closer to destruction. It becomes a tool to scare the sheeple from venturing too far away from the righteous protection of the organization. JWs could become further isolated from normal society, which seems to be what the current GB wants. Circle the wagons, guard against the savages and pray for their god to save them from slaughter at the hands of the pagans.
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simon17
Since the government didn't strip the Watchtower of its tax exempt status over the clearly obvious cover-ups of child molestation, I seriously doubt it would do so over discrimination against homosexuals. Very sad, but true. I truly believe that the Watchtower will bring about its own undoing. As society becomes more enlightened, jws will become more and more of a fringe group. There will probably always be some nutcases like my mom hanging onto the organization for dear life, but most people with common sense and internet access will avoid the cult like the plague. Even the majority of born ins are leaving.
Why would some cover-ups make JW's lose their status as "a religion" in America? Come on thats just silly. Then they'd have to declare basically every religion a non religion for the same reason.
Its not so much the government that would do it but the perception of the entire population. If gay&Lesbians become as accepted as African Americans then having a group completely intolerant to that will bring A LOT of public pressure and heat.
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sir82
Forcing a religion to pay taxes if they don't grant gay rights? Why not tax the WTS now for not allowing proper medical care for their children?
Indeed, why not?
What I'd like to see (granted, wishful thinking) would be some sort of revision of tax-exempt status of organizations who promote any sort of anti-social or even dangerous agenda, such as punishment for the "wrong" kind of medical care, discrimination based on race/gender/sexual orientation, enforced shunning of ex-members, etc.
Again, I'd allow the organization to exist - first amendment rights and all that. But if you want the government subsidy, there should be strict social guidelines that must be met.
In today's political climate this is not likely to happen, but as the current (non-overlapping) generation of kids & 20-somethings begins to assume power & control in the political sphere, why not?
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undercover
Personally, (wishful thinking and all that) I'd like to see ALL religions taxed. No more tax exempt or zoning exmpt status. They can't just build a mega church in a quaint neighborhood, with no thoughts about the disruption of the people living there. They would have to pay taxes on all profits, no matter how the money was brought in.
A friend of mine said that a lot of churches to charitable work and shouldn't be taxed for that work. That's fine. But they would have to set up a non-profit organization with the sole purpose of doing that charity work that has nothing to do with the business of being the church. Separate books, separate accounts. Money made by the church, for the church is taxed. Money donated for the charity, is used for the charity and is exempt from taxes as long as they follow the non-profit laws/rules.
I'd be curious to see how many churches would go to the trouble of doing all that, just to be charitable.
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NewChapter
Unless there is a major shift against all religions in the US and their tax exempt status, I don't think the WT will be targeted in any way. People have a right to believe as they will, and to worship as they wish. The US government will always choose that route---and in the past when they haven't, supreme court decisions have forced them to. The New York law is carefully worded to exempt churches from any lawsuits or negative consequences to refusing to perform gay marriages. And really--isn't that how it should be? I mean, the same prinicpal that makes me support gay marriage is the same principal that makes me support freedom of religion. It's probably time to stop telling each other how to live, even when we think it's ignorant. But that's what it's all about.
NC
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rebel8
I don't think it's conceivable since there is freedom of religion.
What could conceivably happen is the government bans discrimination as a contingency to receive funding. They probably do already, but I'm not sure it's really enforced. For example, Catholic Charities gets a boatload of funds, yet they teach homosexuality is a sin, and they won't provide services to anyone who thinks they might want birth control (so I've heard from one reliable source).
This wouldn't affect wts if they're not getting federal funds, but it would affect other churches.
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Doubting Bro
I'm with undercover. I have never been able to understand why the promotion of religious beliefs is given tax exempt status. Freedom to worship/believe as one sees fit has nothing to do with freedom from taxes. If that was the case, then my paying income taxes violates my freedom of speech. It's a nonsensical argument.
Religious organizations are even held to the same standards as other not for profits (in US). Of course, the famous Jimmy Swaggert case which ended up leading to the WTS going to a "contribution" basis on the literature is one example where the government did say that you can't run a commercial business under the guise of religion.
And, didn't that Bob Jones university lose their not for profit status because they discriminated against minorities?
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Band on the Run
The Fourteenth Amendment has soaring language but its very history in race relations shows that soaring language is all it has. Most of the civl rights movement era improvements came through legislation. The Fourteenth Amendment only applies to government action. Private action, particularly religion, is not touched by one iota. Private association is covered by the First Amendment. As long as any coverable private action is present, the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply. The leading case dealt with an overtly racist club that could only exist wtih a liquor license from the state. The Court held the license was not enough public action. I still reel when I think of it.
People have a const'l right to be jerks, ignorant jerks, in their own lives. While specific cases may upset me greatly, I do not want freedom to be a jerk in my own private sphere. Greenwich Village, indeed even the Upper East Side, shows deep respect for gay people. I attended the Gay Pride parade every year for many years. I'd wear a conspicuous cross and yell my heart out in front of antigay protestors. The Civil Rights Movement had the Indian Independent movement and since Stonewell, the gays have used both models.
I walk past the scene of the Stonewell riots. A plague exists. It blows my mind how far gay rights have come. When Stonewell happened, they were seen as filthy outsiders openly choosing to be gay. Gay wasn't even a word in universal parlance. Only a few were out. Now co-ops want a gay cachet. Their influence in the arts is staggering. There are open lawyers and investment bankers. Far more needs to be done. It seems that most is beiing done through electoral politics and not the judiciary. The present majority, all Catholics, are not carving out any seemly Fourteen Amendment policy. Just I as feel I am so hurt, I can take no more blows and fuddy thinking. The majority strikes again and overturns decades of jurisprudence. In fact, I no longer believe in any jurisprudence, only blatant politics. What to play the market, count the votes of each president's nominees. Voila. A seer.