Power to you, KN. Once you see the light, these guys have nothing.
As of today, I will no longer be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
by Knowsnothing 68 Replies latest jw experiences
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jean-luc picard
Congratulations Knowsnothing ( sounds like a misnomer ).
I fear that the most difficult thing for you will be your mums emotional blackmail, if indeed she trys that.
It is not a nice thing to do, but understanding that she is scared for you, and for her, might help you to pardon it.
In the meantime, enjoy your new freedom.
In a past post, you spoke of a good friend who you can confide in. Are you in touch with him at the moment?
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Mad Sweeney
Congratulations.
I'm curious, why are you agreeing to meet with the elders?
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Knowsnothing
Round 2 was interesting. Let me get to that before I answer your posts. And again, I appreciate the support. This was a much more knowledable elder. He actually came across strong, and I admit that I wasn't able to really "get" anywhere with him. He told me the details(dates such as 75, 14, 25; emphasis the publications and the meetings place on the faithful slave) I was focusing on were minor. He asked me if I still believed in Jehovah, to which I responded, "yes". I didn't hold back in telling him I had read just about everything apostate. He came up with an interesting illustration. He asked, "What happens when you eat too much chocolate?" I respond, "You get a belly ache!" He says, "You have consumed too much apostasy, and that's why you are focusing on the insignificants. Your belly hurts, but for insignificant things. The teachings of greater weight (one God, no hellfire, rejection of idolatry, etc.) are there. Do you believe you can be christian alone?" I responded, "Well, I'll sure try. The point is I cannot fathom God in his infinite greatness allowing for salvation only in an organisation." "But," he said, "would you try to go anywhere else to worship? Would you feel comfortable?" I said, "No." So he pulls out good ol' Acts 10:24,25. "How are you going to do that commandment." (*important side note* keep in mind I had gotten barely no sleep last night, after the freighteningly strong reaction my mother had, after being practically in a daze all day at work (with 2 witness coworkers that I was not yet ready to anounce my decision to), after having had the other elder over for ~1:30 hours, and elder 2 over here at my house at about 10 pm.) (IOW, I was pretty mentally weak already. I was beginning to crack.) I mentioned that where there are 2 or 3, I am in your midst. He also mentioned Micah 7:7. Wait on Jehovah. Alot of brother have had doubts at one point or another. The faithful slave is wrong, but admits it. If you don't believe they are at the right doctrine yet, wait on Jehovah. He finished with a bang with John 6:66. He put a twist on it I had not heard before. He pointed out that the text says He kept pursuing the bigger picture. I ended up acknowledging that 1.) no matter how good worldies are, it's very difficult to find someone you can trust, 2.) in the "bigger picture" I hadn't seen in any other religion what this one does. I basically gave him a carte blanche, and I almost caved. It's perhaps not that he refuted the points so well, as just he was very human in dealing with me. I tryed to point out some of the logical fallacy's, but he pointed out some of mine in my reasonings. Example: I showed him the 8 January 1989 Awake magazine, pg 3 which gives the "Reason why Awake is published." Paraphrasing from Spanish it says, "This magazine promotes trusting in the promise of the Creator to establish a new peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." He diverted to overlapping generation, and even went so far as to say that a 7 year old in 1914 would be today 104. Even he knew that was a far stretch. But, he continued firm, and unfortunately I began to waiver. He basically said towards the end, "You still believe in Jehovah, you still want to follow Bible morals. We can help you." I was silent for a long time and said, "I appreciate your coming here, and telling me the things you have told me. I am starting to see things in a different way. However, I need time to decide." I glad that even though emotion was creeping up on me, I didn't make a rash decision as of that moment. I could of so easily gone back in that moment of weakness. But, today I finally confirmed to my mother I am not going back. She is with the illusion I may one day return. I am decided.
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gutted
Good to hear knowsnothing. It's interesting to encounter elders that are quite good at rhetoric and have strongly internalized the JW doctrines/beliefs and even have their own viewpoints on certain teachings. Trully a company man.
Here is my take on your discussions with the elders, take it or leave it:
You'll never "win" a debate with an elder, because even if you win it all is circular logic in the end. Once they are somewhat defeated they will go to loaded language that turns off the brain like "Where else would we go?" "But it's the closest to following the Bible of any religion" "It's the TRUTH" etc etc etc.
Also your last debate the elder keeps shifting to different topics, generally you want to stick with one you are very knowledgeable of and try to get the point across.
You're on their radar now, and your two courses of action are 1. DA/DF 2. Say you are weak and will stay in the org, then slowly fade out.
If your intentions are to debate the elders this will most likely result in DFing for apostasy.
Good luck, and enjoy your new life!
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leavingwt
Please begin to focus on your future. Watchtower, its members, its theology, etc, are in your past.
There is no 'winning' a debate with a cult member. He or she will continue to believe, despite any evidence to the contrary.
Once a person is empowered to think for himself, very little evidence is needed to persuade a person that WT is simply another high-control group obsessed with the End of World.
Hang in there. The immediate aftermath of leaving the organization is often an emotional rollercoaster. IT WILL GET BETTER. It can take months.
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jean-luc picard
However, I need time to decide.
Thats just what I told an elder after the last time I ever put a foot in a KH.
He never got back to me, though I was dfd two years later when I met Mrs P.
Its a phrase that buys you some time now. If they ask again, try just repeating it.
The important thing now is; get some rest!
Sweet dreams.
jlp
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
He asked, "What happens when you eat too much chocolate?" I respond, "You get a belly ache!" He says, "You have consumed too much apostasy, and that's why you are focusing on the insignificants. Your belly hurts, but for insignificant things. The teachings of greater weight (one God, no hellfire, rejection of idolatry, etc.) are there. Do you believe you can be christian alone?"
False analogy. Coming from someone that only drinks the milk coming from the tit of Watchtower, he has a bellyache because he's grossly malnourished.
As far as the "what other organization" argument, a valid question, "when has there ever been an organization that has remained faithful?" Technically, a christian ought to be prepared to be a christian all alone and stand up against a church like WT with an authoritarian clergy like the GB that has a consistent history of false prophecy. Jesus never said that the narrow and cramped road would be followed by one "organization", it says "few". That means individuals would be approved, not people that were being misled by arrogant self-aggrandizing Watchtower zealots. The head of the man is Christ, not some self-promoting printing corporation. This dude is just a Watchtower pawn that eagerly whitewashes over crumbling JW 19th century theology.
Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the Bible is just another really old book that has many interesting stories, lessons, and warnings that can be drawn from it. Taking stories like the flood to be factual is enslaving oneself to ignorance. Jesus opened the door freeing people from Jewish oppression. Paul followed behind with teachings that have used to enslave people to a christianity that Jesus didn't teach.
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NewChapter
I'm glad you didn't cave. I think it's hard, especially in the beginning, to stand up against such absolute conviction. You were at a disadvantage. He was sure he knew what was true, and maybe you were only sure you knew what was untrue---and you're still working out the details on what is true. That's a weaker position in a debate. Plus he has been trained to refute apostate teachings. Your life-long conditioning also sets in--it's really hard to just dismiss the elder's authority when your brain sometimes fires down old well-worn paths. But you did it!
How is 1914 an insignificant teaching? The entire religion is based on the idea that Jesus began his heavenly rule i n1914. Now they must whitewash and soften that teaching---focusing on doctrine instead of prophecy. But you remember, and you remember correctly. 1914 was a big deal. Remember how many times we studied the Revelation Climax book? That entire book was based on 1914. Or what about the book on Daniel's Prophecy? This isn't ancient history--as much as they wish it was. If it is so insignificant then why was it so prominent for over 100 years--nearly the entire life of the religion? So he tries to convince you that your worries are minor, and it's easy to forget they are actually major.
No dear KnowsMUCH, you didn't eat too much chocolate--unless the org is guilty of force feeding chocolate for over 100 years instead of that healthful spiritual food! YOU didn't concentrate on 1914, THEY did, and now they want to take it all back. They can't. Keep that in mind if there are any more rounds. It is my experience that when someone does wrong, they try to minimize it and distract you with other details. My brother is notorious for this (yes, he is a manchild and I have had to take care of him at times.) "Well I know I didn't cut the lawn, but I did the dishes! You just get mad about what I don't do and don't think about what I do!" I have to center myself and say, "it's irrelevent---you didn't cut the lawn."
So you see, the elder's points are irrelevent. They touted 1914 and they did wrong.
NC
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Anony Mous
Hey, you may want to continue the elder-you conversation in writing to 'arrange your thoughts better'. A trained motivational speaker will railroad over any young one don't worry.
I was focusing on were minor. If they are minor, why are they still portrayed as truth. If they were the truth back then and now they are not, were they ever the truth? How can we claim to have the truth if we keep changing it.
The teachings of greater weight (one God, no hellfire, rejection of idolatry, etc.) are there. Actually, in Christianity as a whole those are the minor teachings. The greater teaching is the salvation by Christ and not through an organization. Do you believe you can be christian alone?" Yes you can. A Christian is somebody who believes in Christ and salvation through him. JW's are not Christians by the strict definition of the word. "would you try to go anywhere else to worship?" I would rather go nowhere. Jesus never thought us that there is a need to worship together in unity with an organization. Ask him for proof where Jesus organized a single organization. Rather he told the apostles that attempted to stop the man healing in the name of Jesus: If they're not for us, they're against us. Likewise Nikodemus was a Christian but didn't gather anywhere in large groups. I mentioned that where there are 2 or 3, I am in your midst. Exactly. Can you not find 2 or 3 like-minded people? Yes you can. There are many religions to 'pick' out of. Doesn't mean theirs is right. The faithful slave is wrong, but admits it. If you don't believe they are at the right doctrine yet, wait on Jehovah. The F&DS never admits wrong. They never have! Ask him where you can find retractions of statements such as 1975, blood, transplants. Again, if the prophecies were claimed to be inspired or guided by Holy Spirit, why were they wrong? Why were they claimed to be inspired if they weren't right in the first place? Also, if we wait on Jehovah why does Jehovah have to change a lot of things back and forth? There are countless examples of JW doctrine that has flip-flopped. Ask him if he thinks maybe the organization has lost the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the years? He probably will say no. Then ask, why then has the doctrine the Holy Spirit approved in 1918 when the Witness leaders were freed from jail changed so severely since? Could the Holy Spirit or Christ approve of a religion that thought false doctrine back then? If the doctrine back then was not false, how come most of it is now false (such as the explanation on how to calculate 1914, Christmas etc.)
He kept pursuing the bigger picture. However those that are not faithful in little are not to be trusted to be faithful in much! no matter how good worldies are, it's very difficult to find someone you can trust Actually, that's JW indoctrination. It's very hard to find a JW you can trust. Find a JW that you can't trust going to the elders for any little misstep, find a JW that will accept you for being different. It's very easy to find a worldly you can trust for being different, many more if you actually go out and talk to some people and build up a relationship however there are as much JW's if not more as there are 'worldly' people that are dishonest. I hadn't seen in any other religion what this one does. Such as? Mormons are very close to JW's except for their cookie "looking into a hat" prophet. Bible Students are still around and are the 'others' that stopped following the WTBTS when the split happened and Rutherford took over the organization by force. They still spread Russell's message and books. If you take an honest look around you see many that do what the JW does and more. Who is helping flood victims, earthquake victims etc. It's definitely NOT JW's as they only help themselves and only barely so, many Witnesses in Louisiana had to rely on handouts from the Catholic Church, regardless of the sob stories the JW publishes they did not help them. I even volunteered to go over there and they said there was no need, I was with the RBC and never even got an invitation or status report to repair any houses or kingdom halls. He diverted to overlapping generation So was the old light not the truth then? "You still believe in Jehovah, you still want to follow Bible morals. We can help you." Help what? I believe in God (Jehovah or Yahweh), I follow Bible morals, nobody can "help" me, salvation is through Christ and only he can help me. I am still a Witness though but I do not want to diverse too far from the basic Christian morals that are thought among either JW's or other protestant religions. I do not want to be part of an organized religion though as those seem to get in the way of a personal relationship with God. Why do THEY need to help YOU if God himself says that he will call those worthy to his organization?