Honest questions for believers.....

by Paulapollos 52 Replies latest jw friends

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  Paulapollos

  Hi Snowbird,

  I see what you are saying about the Bible being God's message, but compromised by man. That makes sense to me, in that there is clear evidence of man revising, editing, and selectively compiling the Bible.

  I was just thinking, can I ask you this: you said that Jehovah was fighting fire with fire, to defend his own people. That I can understand, except for one thing - why would Jesus/Jehovah then say that we should "turn the other cheek" when attacked? What was the reason for the change?

  Also, I was wondering, why would God have punishments like burning people, and stoning people, to death? Ostensibly, these were not in the defense of his people. So, why such brutal punishments? Or would you consider them to be the "human" part of the Bible - and if so, how do you know?

  PP
• 

  snowbird

  why would Jesus/Jehovah then say that we should "turn the other cheek" when attacked? What was the reason for the change?

  His people were then under the heel of the Roman Empire. Discretion is the better part of valor.

  Also, I was wondering, why would God have punishments like burning people, and stoning people, to death? Ostensibly, these were not in the defense of his people. So, why such brutal punishments? Or would you consider them to be the "human" part of the Bible - and if so, how do you know?

  Once again, I refer to the Book of Jasher. One thing that struck me was how people were much more directly brutal in those days. So, I believe YHWH was simply answering the fools according to their foolishness.

  No, I don't believe those accounts of burning and stoning to be the compromised parts of the Bible; I believe such actions were sanctioned by YHWH. That way, none of us should be shocked at His future actions, which, if I read the Bible correctly, will be anything but pretty.

  UnderCover, I believe your divan in Purgatory awaits.

  Syl
• 

  Expanded-Mind

  Hi, Paulapollos!

  I also struggled with the same issues you noted in your original post. After leaving the Watchtower organization, I jumped head first into Evangelical Christianity. As I look back at that time, it is interesting to me that questions I had about the authority of the Watchtower Society surfaced and I began to ask the same questions of God, the Bible and Christianity.

  As do others, I believe in God but no longer consider myself a Christian. I am a Deist. I believe that God's existence is evident through nature and all that we can know --- or need to know --- about God is revealed through nature and science. I have pondered many of the arguments of atheism, and agree with many of the arguments, but when it comes to the existence of God, the arguments against it just didn't convince me. But the thing is this: I am not longer obligated to keep my head in the sand. I can take an honest look at any and all teachings and views --- from any person or group --- without fear.

  "It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine

  "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." Oliver Wendell Holmes

  Best,

  Expanded-Mind
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  Mad Sweeney

  From deism it is a short walk to panentheism. The next logical step from there is pantheism, IMO.

  I, too, can't quite commit to the concept of no god or higher consciousness of any sort yet. That said, I am relatively certain that there is nothing in existence anything like the theistic concept of god.
• 

  Rocky_Girl

  you do not have the Bible as a basis for your beliefs. I presume you don't have any other book either?

  That is true, I view all holy books as written by humans in an attempt to portray God in a certain way. They all have value, because they give us a glimpse of other viewpoints and perceptions.

  If so, can I ask you, why do you believe in God?

  I honestly don't know why, when given the same information, I believe in God when others do not.

  What has prompted you to?

  I feel a need to believe in something bigger than myself. I would not have that need if there was not something bigger to believe in. For me, that is God.

  Do you feel that there is no need to have any "objective" proof for belief in God?

  No. My belief in God does not change my perception of what will happen to me after my time on Earth is done. I do not believe that God cares whether we believe in Him or not; our fate is not dependant on our belief system. What would happen if I am right? What would happen if I were wrong? The same thing... Believing fills a place in my heart, so I believe.

  I am genuinely interested, because you seem to have a fairly post-modern approach to the question of God, values, and the way we live our lives

  Some would say that I am wishy washy; I like your description better. I actively study religious thought and philosophy and keep company with intellectually curious people. It seems that every culture and society agrees on what is "moral" or "correct" behavior. It is generally wrong to kill others without cause, take other's possessions, or to be dishonest or abusive to others in your community. It is all about respect and generosity. I put more stock in that than any "holy book."As for God, I consider Him as part of me, and so praying is a sort of meditation where I find my own answers.
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  I'm intrigued, Rocky_Girl.

  A few more questions if I may, based on this part of your post: As for God, I consider Him as part of me, and so praying is a sort of meditation where I find my own answers.

  Do you consider him a separate part of you or an integral part of you?

  Is he a part of everyone and/or everything else?
• 

  Rocky_Girl

  Do you consider him a separate part of you or an integral part of you?

  Somewhat integral, like the little voice inside that tells you which path is correct. But also separate, like the events that seem to fall perfectly in place for you when you need help. Serendipity, perhaps.

  Is he a part of everyone and/or everything else?

  Yes, everything and everyone. But passively. Not pushy or intrusive.

  Not a traditional viewpoint, I admit, but it has developed over time.
• 

  PSacramento

  Paulapollos,

  I am a Christian and a believer in what the bible is.

  I see God in everything and I see God revealed in th ebible, the universe and ultimately in His Son, His Word, Christ.

  The universe we live in is a progressive revelation of God, as is the bible.

  We have to tkae the bibel for what it is and for what it is NOT and YOU must choose that line, no one else can do it for you.

  I have often said this and perhaps it bares repeating:

  The bible is like a finger, pointing the way to God, don't concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory.

  Taking only PART of how God has revealed and is revealing himself to Us give us only PART of the grand picture.

  In regards to the "viciosu nature of YHWH", may I suggest:

  Is God a Moral Monster, By Paul Copan.

  As for the issue of suffering:

  No answer will satisfy you, nor should it, we KNOW the suffering is wrong and that it OUGHT to NOT exist, but it does.

  What you should ask yourself is WHY do you believe that suffering is wrong and WHERE do you base that from?

  That is the beginning of an amazing journey.
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  Rocky_Girl

  Paulappolos - You speak above of truth. There is not absolute, provable truth. Anyone who claims to have the "truth" is lying to you, and probably himself. Once you let go of that need for a specific truth, you can be free to choose what you believe knowing there are warts involved with any belief, or non-belief, system. Perhaps you could compromise by finding what rings true to you, with the acknowledgement that it may not feel right to someone else. It requires strength to take a stand on the question of God - whether you believe or not.

  Only you can decide whether the warts of a certain belief are too big or ugly to live with.
• 

  Paulapollos

  Hi Snowbird,

  Thanks for your answer. Forgive me for presuming, but I take it you believe in certain parts of the Bible – so, how do you decide? Do you choose the parts that seem to fit with your picture of God? Or is there a more unbiased method?

  I can see your view of YHWH follows a logical process – but it seems to point to a God who has no problem “sanctioning” violence against those who violate his moral dictates. So exactly how this God can be spoken of as a God who values free will seems to be a total juxtaposition. It makes no sense – he is essentially saying that “you should do what I say, because you want to; but of course, if you choose not to, I will kill you. Now, what is your choice?”. That isn’t free will – it seems closer to dictatorship?

  I hate to say it, but if that is God’s view, what is the difference (and believe me, I shudder when I say this, because I have always been a God-fearing person) between God and Adolf Hitler?

  PP

  ExpandedMind – I love your points. They seem to sum up mine, almost to a tee! The fact that the existence of God may be highly improbable, does not make it impossible.